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The In Box blog is a general news and discussion site for the News Department of North Country Public Radio. In Box contact information 
Latest NCPR News
The In Box blog is a general news and discussion site for the News Department of North Country Public Radio. In Box contact information
Latest NCPR News
April 17, 2010 7:30 AMSo, how did all that " Compassionate Conservatism " work for ya from 2000-2008? A Budget surplus got turned into a huge deficit and more good jobs lost, Banks failing and your 401K worth half what it was. You are probably still waiting for all that " oil" money to come through and pay off the $ trillion dollar debt for that war Bush/Cheney said would pay for itself. Republicans play wing nut groups like the tea baggers like a cheap violin, and you dance to their tune every time. Too funny. As long as you keep drinking the koolaid their talking heads make, they will keep making it and then laugh all the way to their nearest lobbyist.
dear bret,let me first say that i agree with you that government employees absolutely have the right to protest against the size of government. when they do so in a hypocritical way, then they certainly open themselves up to whatever derision they get. i have no idea what dave and diane actually think, but there's nothing even remotely hypocritical about their signs. i think you're right to call out the other commenters who have disparaged them.but that's about where our agreement ends. i find your latest comment full of sloppy thinking at best, and willful distortion at worst — and, in my opinion, it's quite typical of a lot of conservative aggrievement these days.on the one hand, you and the tea partiers are upset about the total amount of government spending (to be safe let me just restrict to the federal level in all of this, since that's what i really know). and you're also upset about the deficit. and you're also (i think) upset about the level of taxes — though to be fair, maybe you really do know that taxes are very low right now and you're happy about that and you're just upset about pending future tax increases. and you're also upset about waste and inefficiency in government.and there are probably some other things i'm leaving out too! but in my experience, there are an awful lot of people out there who don't really understand that those are four different things. i don't know if that also applies to you, but you've been jumping around between all four of them in this thread.in my previous comment, i responded to a specific claim you made about the deficit, and your response was to jump to talking about spending. these are different things. here's a nice chart that shows total federal debt as a percentage of gdp since 1930. (of course, debt and the deficit are also different, but i think the debt is the thing that really matters.) and what you see in the chart is sky-high debt in the wake of wwii that steadily declined, under democratic and republican administrations alike, until good old st. ronnie came into office and turned that right around! and then it was up-up-up until clinton got it headed back in the right direction, but then bush and the republicans undid those gains, and then crisis hit. and of course, eisenhower and nixon would be moderate democrats by the standards of things today. so it's just nuts to lump democrats and republicans together.but who knows, maybe you didn't really mean to talk about deficits at all in the first place and it was just a slip. if so, what exactly are your big beefs?
Anon 7:30 AMYou are correct. Bush, great commander-in-chief and decider that he was, nevertheless badly confused having compassion with being a conservative.Dick Cheney tried over and over again to get this into "Juniors" head, but still Bush got us into deep trouble and debt because he was just to damned compassionate.He felt great compassion for the Iraqi people and launched the biggest rescue attempt, "Shock and Awe" (shockingly awesome) so far attempted in the 21st century.He felt great compassion for the big pharmas and made it possible for them to reap unbelievable profits from poor folks on Medicare and Medicaid.This modern day birthing of the "Tea-Party" and their co-travelers, the "Birthers" are not compassionate whatsoever.Conservative? Hell yes! All of these Tea Partiers are true Americans who have worked hard all their lives supporting themselves and doing it all on their own through their own initiative and self-education.No government program or public institution was or is responsible for their success and well-being.They did it all on their own. And when they get sick, their church and relatives take care of them. Only lazy urban types and stoned-out liberals rely upon welfare and the government to provide for them. Get it? This is conservatism without the compassion.Sorry Mr. Bush, but we still love you more each day that we live under Obama's dictatorship.
I just love a good photo of lemmings. Thanks.
The part I just don't get is why conservatives hold up Reagan as the standard bearer and what they think we should go back to. Last time I looked he doubled the size of Government and tripled the deficit in eight years. Just a fact. But when Obama wants to put the tax table where it was when Regan was President these people kick and scream. I don't think this is about politics, or Government or policies at all. I think this whole uproar is strictly personal.
I don't think this is about politics, or Government or policies at all. I think this whole uproar is strictly personal.obviously there are some individual exceptions, but broadly speaking that first sentence sounds completely correct to me. but i don't know that it's strictly personal either — i mean, i'm sure the conservative rump would hate just as much on whomever emerged as the democrats'/liberals'/left's leader. kennedy: drove them crazy! clinton: drove them crazy! obama: driving them crazy right now! which i guess makes it a good time to link to this recent kevin drum post, which in turn leans on this rick perlstein piece in the times.i'm certainly no tea partier, and i really don't know what the whole uproar is about. doubtless a good chunk of it is just tribal identity politics. and surely there's a lot to it beyond that. i'd love it if someone could explain it all coherently.
anons 9:03 and 9:05, are you two kidding? as one of you noted yourself(!), all david wrote was "plenty of anger here in canton." i for one took that to mean exactly that the people he saw and spoke to were expressing anger over what they were protesting about. as david subsequently explained, the protesters themselves described themselves as angry. and yet the two of you somehow twist that in the most pernicious way into thinking that david is calling the protesters "angry people." talk about a textbook example of the conservative persecution complex.
hermit thrush said…Thanks, I read the Kevin Drum post. Will be as close to explaining the " stuff " going on as it will ever get I suspect. There certainly is no logical discourse that could show how Government is really different from 1930 until today. It is sad to see Republican Congressional House members acting like drunken frat boys at a football game, but I think that all began with Newt Gingrich and the Barnum and Bailey routine in the 90s. It worked then, for a while, and I suppose some think it will work again . I would hope elected officials would behave better, at least while at work, but with the cheering from the "Right" every time they do not, it is to be expected that the Circus will continue. The American way of life and values are diminished more by Republican Congressman Wilson yelling " You lie " during the State of the Union Address than by all the terrorists in the World. it is offensive and demeaning to behave that way in the presence of the President of this Country. I do hope that the conservative movement and the tea bag wing of it get past these staged mini drama scenes, stop acting like clowns at a convention and work "with " America and not against America to make it all work better.
Why do some people blame the Government and politicians for short comings in their own lives? What happened to personal responsibility? How do you expect to enjoy and benefit from all the things this country provides, but think it does not have to be paid for. Tea Bag Party members want to pay freight wages but ride first class. If you want to get rid of Social Security and medi-care and downgrade the military and cut spending , then fine, I am OK with that. At least it makes sense if you want to be honest about saving money and lowering taxes at the same time. But, plueese, stop the whining and the nonsense about pork spending. It just does not make one bit of difference if you cut it all out. Just stop being silly and start being serious. Most Americans are getting tired of the dog and pony show. It is wearing thin.
HT, since you are apparently the only person here on the left capable of rational thought, (the rest of you sound like Olbermann/Emanuel/Nader bobble heads), I'll stick to addressing your posts. The deficit is driven by spending, right? Taxes are driven by spending and paying interest on the deficit and National Debt, right? I won't pretend to know what's in the mind of other conservatives and Tea Party members, but for me the issue is uncontrolled spending, entitlements the Federal Gov't has no right or place being involved in, wars that need to end (yes- we need a finish to it), and most of all a thought train on behalf of the public that Gov't can somehow continue to provide all things to all people without it costing anything- and if it does cost, well we'll just tax the "rich". The problem is the definition of "rich" varies from multi-billionaires to "anyone who makes a dime more than me". So I don;t have a lot of faith in anyones definition of "rich". I've been told I'm "rich" because I made some good decisions and worked my butt off. So now I must be punished for not becoming a minimum wage drunk/druggie, like many of my classmates, and for playing by the rules and actually trying to make something of myself. That to me seems fundamentally unfair. But to others it's "right". Maybe that's the difference between a conservative and a liberal- I expect everyone to use what they have to do their best, and I hope Gov't stays out of my way. A liberal expects Gov't to stomp down anyone who looks to be climbing a little faster than the slowest person, and to punish them with taxes. Another poster called it "fairness" I think. I see nothing "fair" about it.So to me the whole debt/deficit/future taxes issue is part of the larger problem of one group attempting to take from another group, and succeeding rather well at it. People here talk about companies leaving for other places, be it a different State or country. What do we expect? We punish people/companies that make a profit with taxes, taxes, taxes and entitlements we demand they pay by law. If you were "The Boss" and you busted your butt building a company making widgits and you employed 1000 people and Gov't and the Union were doing everything they could to drive you out of business with taxes, entitlements and regulations why would you stay? If you're "rich" because you worked and earned it what "right" does Gov't have to punish you with taxes and what ethical right does the left have to say it's "fair" to take what you've earned? This is part of the reason I'm in favor of doing away with all taxes except a sales tax or going to a flat tax. No more loop holes for rich or poor, no more "add a tax to pay for pork/war/or someone elses beer and porn. There's what you have to work with Gov't. Make do, just like the rest of us. But you'll never see a Democrat or Republican go for that, much less a Congresscritter that might not get that Senator Whatshisname Memorial Library built. I dunno HT, I tire of trying to talk reason to people. At least you listen. Thank you for that.
by "busting your butt" do you mean companies like AIG and Enron or the hedge fund managers who make a fortune, perfectly legally, by betting against a financial product they sold? Are the trust fund babies busting their butts? So, gov't should just stay out of these fine compaines ways. Deregulate we know what's best. Yeah right.
For this Tea Party follower I have big problem with our tax sytems in general. We have one most complex difficult tax codes in the world. That leads to increased costs to business, more opportunity for fraud and less COMMON SENSE INVOLVED.According to an WSJ article American Businesses may pay up to 89 Cents per dollar spent on Taxes. GE's 2007 tax return was over 24,000 pages long. This is ridiculous!As for fraud, lets look at one our writers of tax code, career politician, Charlie Rangel he knew all the ways to cheat the system!Finally, I have no problem that 47% of people do not pay taxes, if their income puts them at Zero tax liability, ok. The fact that many people get more money back from the IRS than they paid in and actually turn a profit on Income Tax is UNACCEPTABLE! Income Tax is not a Social Welfare system.Simplify taxes and we could save Billions! We would also make easier to understand and likely more fair. Those are my complaints and solutions as a Tea Party follower. Do these make me angry or nuts?
If you are Taxed Enough Already then specifically what spending at Federal, State and local levels would you like reduced or eliminated? Eliminate loopholes and revenue will increase, but that will mean Taxed Enough Already will get taxed somemore. Which is apparently unacceptable. Get rid of waste and fraud. Of course, who could be against getting rid of waste and fraud. But how?
9:56, There are far, far more people who do in fact "bust their butts" earning their money than there are hedge fund types and AIG's. The problem with the tax the rich idea is that you aren't hitting just the shady bankers and trust fund types, although why trust funds are suddenly bad is beyond me. Trust funds were good when they benefited NCPR, St Lawrence, Clarkson and SUNY Canton. Kind of a double standard isn't it? Anyway, you arne't punishing (I like that description) just the Wall St boys, you're punishing the contractors, the restaurateurs, the car dealers, the equipment dealerships, the groceries, the hardwares, the clothiers, the hoteliers, the theme park owners, the ski shops, the rafting companies, the lumber yards, the marinas, the convenience store owner. In short you're punishing anyone who makes a good living, even though they actually work for that living. Obama and many here keep saying it's fair to punish those that make over $250K. Well that's fine, but is Obama and are you people here talking gross or net? And if you mean net, do that rich guys other obligations- kids, other family or businesses he supports with that money- matter at all? What you end up doing is taking from someone who is providing the working capital for the backbone of the economy. The small minded toss out a figure like $250K that means nothing, it's just a figure that resonates with what the average Joe making $65K a year thinks of as rich. You can say $100K, 200K, 500K. It's all the same thing. You want to punish the guy who has a little more because in your arrogance you think "He doesn't need that much" but he might be supporting 5 or 6 other businesses and their employees with that net of his. It's not that simple.
Face it, people.The rich are better than you and me, because they have more money, which matters more than anything else. Also, too, they all earned every penny of it, came by all of it completely honestly, with not luck or advantages, and owe nothing to anyone else.Let them all have as much of whatever they want as they want.Because they deserve it, and we losers don't.
Ed, Trust Fund babies earn their money? Really! womb investing. Never knew there was such a thing. It really is beyond me. And exactly how many dinner outs, boat, houses, vactions did Mr. $53 million Exon CEO chairman take. Thank god he is helping out this country by EARNING that salary.
What are you- unable to read simple sentences 1:20 and 2:31? Not everyone you liberal takers want to punish is a mega rich trust fund Wall St broker. They're guys like my boss that WORKED to get where they are and now employs 43 people! Get off your holier than thou liberal-progressive high horse and realize you people are whats killing off small business.
No one wants to punish anyone. We would Just like to return rates to what they were under that wonderful, but forgetful, Ronald W. Reagan.
Beck Bobble Heads like Bret blame unions. All those lazy, lousy Americans who thought it would be a good idea if they made a living wage doing a job in this country. Those companies all moved overseas because they found labor in China for 20 cents an hour. A place where the Government controls everything. Now Bret won't work for 20 cents an hour, and he does not want his publicly educated children to work for 20 cents an hour, but, hey, that is the only way those companies can make any money. And not pay taxes here. Brilliant! Welcome to the new America. It has no middle class in a few years, no one that can buy all that stuff, but hey, small price to pay for " fixing" America. Now the fact that as Union wages increased wages increased all other workers because that is how the free market place works does not bother Bret. He is sure his wages increased because he worked sooo much harder than the other guy. yes, lets blame it on the American worker and Unions…Hey, Ronnie Reagan said it was so, so it must be true..
The Tea Party is a myth. There is no such thing, never was. They do not have a platform or a leader and do not want to form a third Party because they are just the Noise wing of the Republican Party. Recent surveys show that they comprise 92% Republican voter registration, 35% are on SS and medi-care, they are 89% white. The majority of them are over 45 and do not want to see cuts to SS or medi-care or the military. So there goes any meaningful conversation about budget solutions. 38% are birthers, they do not even think Obama is American. They only have one thing truly in common. They hate Democrats. And there you have it. That is their platform. Whenever a Democrat is President they rear up like a snake in the grass. They did it during the Clinton Administration ( he drives them nuts, especially the part about turning Reagans deficit into a surplus) and they are doing it now. They disappeared during the Bush years, because he was their guy. They did not care about the Constitution or deficits then or even a crumbling housing crisis or financial volcanoes. You are not what you say you are, you are politically what you vote for, and they vote Republican every time. That is fine, but a little truth in advertising would be refreshing. Tom DeLay and Newt and Cheney must go to bed just laughing at night.
As long as the liberal/progressives have the ability to steal from the taxpayer they will. Just like NPR-NCPR taking money from the taxpayer and then bragging about meeting your pledge drives. If you make so much from the pledges then give back the taxpayer money. Same for all liberals take, take, take. Steal from the working man and give it to the welfare bum or some artist that never had a creative thought in his life. Just a bunch of lazy ass liberals stealing from the workers in this country that's all you are.
my eyebrows nicer than yo…Thanks for sharing Rush. Have a great day.
Wow, go away for a couple days and things get nasty.Look folks, the Tea Party "myth" is alive and well. You may not agree with it, like it or want it to succeed, but it's there. So is the communist movement, the socialist movement, etc. Facts are facts. One of those facts is that we cannot sustain our current spending pattern. Why people get all upset at the idea of a group of people taking politicians of both parties to task for being irresponsible with taxpayer money is beyond me.I don't know anyone involved in the TP that is in favor of cutting off Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid. I do know a bunch that are in favor of returning Social Security to it's previous status as a "trust fund" type account, ie- getting politicians fingers out of the kitty. It won't fix SS, but it will help. I know TP members who are in favor of cutting the fraud and waste in Medicare/Medicaid. Same for pretty much every other Federal and State program. Yes, I do know people (myself included) who are all for doing away with the Dept of Energy and Education, arts funding, NPR/PBS funding, pork of all types, auditing the Federal Reserve, ending our wars, closing our borders, deporting our illegal aliens and rethinking our trade agreements and taxation system to make the US more favorable to business. IOW- the general feeling I get is the TP as a whole is in favor of responsible gov't and fiscal responsibility. I haven't spoken to anyone yet who wants to throw old people out on the street, starve orphans and widows, return to slavery, create a new Third Reich or keep women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. The TP folks I know aren't in love with the "rich", but aren't in favor of turning them into paupers either. The distrust of the Wall St. types is alive and well in the TP. "Flipping houses" and loans to unqualified applicants is no more popular at the TP than at Moveon.org. Bundling those bad loans and selling them (to apparent idiots) as mortgage backed securities is just as dumb and destructive a move at the TP as it is here.I'm saying that the strawmen I see crated here in some posts are beyond ridiculous, class envy seems to rule with some people. Maybe it's time we got beyond that and took an honest look at just where we're headed. Things aren't getting better. Banks are failing, jobs aren't growing, prices are rising. Only by demanding fiscal responsibility can we even hope to slow the decay. I honestly don;t think we can stop it, but maybe we can slow it.
"but it's there. So is the communist movement,"Bret, you totally nailed it. The Tea Party movement is about as big and in tune with the majority of Americans as the modern-day communist movement.
So what if it is? Is anyone forcing people to join the TP? I didn't think so. So why does everyone froth at the mouth over it?