Build the mosque
If nothing else, the debate over the “Ground Zero” mosque proves once again that there are demagogues and bigots in every society, within every religion.
What’s more, it proves that there are cowardly enablers — who cede power and authority to those who would close our minds, narrow our liberties, and manipulate our worst passions — within every religion.
Here it is bluntly: Anyone who argues that Islam is an evil or violent faith is a bigot.
Anyone who would try to bully a peaceful congregation into closing their place of worship is unAmerican.
The same bigoted arguments have been made within our society for decades, about Roman Catholics, Jews, Protestants, and Mormons.
I don’t call these arguments ignorant because I believe that many of the purveyors of this filthy hatred know better. They have lived or traveled in Muslim countries where extremism is no more common than in American cities.
They have read the literature and listened to the music and (yes) heard the profound spiritual teachings of this ancient and complex faith.
What’s more, they have dealt with societies where it is the Christians (Kosovo) or the Hindus (India) who are committing atrocities against Muslims — in the name of their faith and their God.
In short, these bigots know better.
And the appeasers who fail to confront them know well where this kind of politically-motivated intolerance leads.
The people who would build this place of worship are our own citizens. They are Americans, wishing to congregate in peace and worship their God without interference from the government or their neighbors.
It has become a cliche to suggest that when we act out of fear and ugliness, then the terrorists have truly won.
This case is more loathsome because those who would play on our fears and our prejudices do so with such calculation, such callow intent.
America is a better place than this. We are a society of laws and freedoms, not of whisper campaigns and sectarian zealots.
Building the mosque in the heart of the world’s most vibrant an d cosmopolitan city will prove that. Rejecting bullies and demagogues at the ballot box in November will drive the message home.
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It’s not about Islam. The time line and the people who instigated the story show otherwise.
Name calling doesn’t win the argument.
This mosque is not about freedom of religion. There are plenty of mosques in Manhattan. No one is against the building of mosques in the name of religion.
This is about politics. Follow the money.
This is about insensitivity on the part of builders who are ignoring the families whose loved ones were killed.
Nice try, Brian. Call everyone opposed to your view a “bigot” and you think you can win the argument.
Your view is wrong, in my opinion, and I don’t have to call you a name to say so.
JDM:
I’ll go one step further.
You know you’ve lost the argument when your only retort is to start calling people “bigot”.
According to Brian Mann, Harry Reid is a bigot.
Sen. Harry Reid of Nevada on Monday became the highest profile Democrat to break with President Barack Obama, who on Friday backed the right for the developers to build a mosque near ground zero.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hHYUXhXg36rpzKeUva55Llvea41AD9HKOTM04
nice call, Brian.
I suspect before the day is out, he will have called a lot of high profile Dems, “bigot”
Anon, JDM –
If all I did was call people bigots, your argument would have force. That was not the end of my post.
The point of my post — which you haven’t attempted to rebut — is that this is a clear, craven effort to use religious intolerance for political gain.
If you want to follow the money, then I suggest you follow it back to the politicians who are making untenable arguments against this mosque.
Follow it back to their arguments against the center, which are based fundamentally on the idea that this 9/11 was perpetrated not by “terrorists” but by “Muslims.”
That argument — and the absolutely pervasive argument now current in conservative circles about Islam being a “militant” faith — is bigoted.
Here’s a parallel:
I have written at length in this blog about the crisis in the Roman Catholic Church over child sexual abuse by priests.
In that story, there is actually a lot of evidence that the church hierarchy enabled the incredibly violent criminal behavior that went on for decades.
Yet never once have I suggested that Roman Catholicism is a faith that inherently inclined toward crimes of this sort.
Nor have I suggested that Catholics should no longer build their churches next to schools where young children gather — because doing so would be an affront to “their” victims.
The reason I don’t make such an argument is that it would be bigoted, ignorant and hateful about an entire faith.
Yet there were times in America’s history of religious intolerance when just such an argument would have been made against the Irish, Italians and French Canadians who were viewed as a suspicious new wave of immigrants.
Finally, if you think there is a non-bigoted argument for urging our government to restrict the place and freedom of worship by a peaceful congregation — then make it.
–Brian, NCPR
PNElba: “It’s not about Islam.” Are you serious?
Yes, Harry Reid is acting craven and bigoted.
Meanwhile, a lot of Republicans and conservatives are showing real courage on this issue.
Mark McKinnon, Mark Halperin, Joe Scarborough, Michael Gerson, Michael Bloomberg…
I’ll add more names to the list of GOP voices supporting freedom of religion as I find them…
–Brian, NCPR
Brian, You’re absolutely correct. If the forces of intolerance find a way to stop this mosque, our ideals of liberty are done for. It’s a phony issue, dreamed up by Fox News and Republicans as the gay marriage wedge of this election cycle.
I agree.
If anyone is using this as a campaign issue, then they are grasping at straws.
And another thing: it’s not a mosque. It’s a recreational/child-care center, with room set aside for praying.
gromit, don’t bother with facts, like so much else in our national debates this isn’t about facts.
Very good post Brian, definitely “Build the mosque.”
John Stewart had a great story on the other night about a mosque that is already located two or three blocks from the ground zero site. That mosque has been there for 40+ years. Call it what it is, a political wedge issue that will only fire up the ignorant. Harry Reid is caught up in a very close election and its no surprise that he would use this issue as well. Politicians only look out for number one and normally end up stepping in number two. Rodney Dangerfield once said that about his career but I think it applies to a lot of situations.
New Jersey’s Republican governor, Chris Christie, has now come out in support of the mosque. That’s one more conservative name on the list of supporters of religious freedom.
He described opposition to the mosque as “disturbing” and chastised both parties for politicizing this issue.
–Brian, NCPR
Yeah I see it as an opportunity to talk about religious freedom and the right of all faiths to Proselytize. Brian had posted an article earlier from a female Muslim about one of the things that Muslims needed was the opportunity to learn about other faiths and to convert if they want; including the Love of Christ for Muslims.
Hopefully if this center is largely funded by Muslim governments and donors outside of the US it will be an opportunity for the US to talk about the building of Churches in Islamic communities and countries.
I am not sure we can really call this an “American Muslim” project if the 100 million is not coming from American Muslims, but even if it is not an “American Muslim” project it still can be built and that is part of our culture and constitution.
Thank you Brian for an excellent post. Build the mosque.
Objection to the mosque has its roots in plain and simple bigotry. Unfortunately, some politicians seem to be cowardly catering to the bigotry, while others are showing some real leadership. George W. Bush should speak up and remind those on the right of the tolerance for Islam he was so careful to promote after 9/11. This episode is a complete disgrace.
This could be a “teaching moment.”
If we could allow the masque or whatever you want to call it be built and stop with the protests, our wonderful leaders could go to Islamic countries, such as Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia and say, “Look. You say you are peaceful and tolerant. Now prove it by letting Christians build churches and preach about their religion.”
Fair is fair.
Maybe after it is built, some hot young women wearing as little as our laws allow could stand outside and protest how women are controlled in most Islamic countries.
It’s not a mosque. But build it anyway.
I am astounded by the inability of the media and the public to think rationally. They made it sound like Obama was supporting extremism when he said they had a right to build the mosque there. I guess religious freedom must be an extremist idea. Then they said he was back pedaling when he said that he believed building it there was a bad idea. Well, guess what? The two statements are not inconsistent. I have a right to back my car out of the garage without opening the door but it is a bad idea. Just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should (remember Bill Clinton’s “I did it for the worst of all possible reasons, because I could”). I don’t think it should be be built there because, intentionally or otherwise, it will offend so many people. And while I’m on the subject, that’s all Harry Reid said. He didn’t say that the government should step in and abort the project.
Ideally they should be able to build their mosque with no fuss but unfortunately there are a disturbingly large number of people in this country whose thought process is so shallow that they can’t separate a handful of terrorists who follow an extreme version of Islam from millions of peaceful members of the mainstream religion.
We don’t live in an ideal world. We sometimes have to make concessions to bigots and other idiots to avoid nasty consequences that their unreasoned hatred will provoke. I would advise them to build the mosque elsewhere for the simple reason that building it there in the face of this furor is a virtual guarantee that some fool, fueled by all the hate talk, will try to bomb it or otherwise attack it as soon as it is finished. I don’t like that we sometimes have to bow to jerks but “that’s life”.
OK, I think I understand this now. Anytime we don’t like the way someone chooses to exercise their constitutional rights and freedoms, we just say, “Sorry, I don’t like this, so your ‘rights’ are suspended. Lets stop calling it the BILL OF RIGHTS and call it the BILL OF PRIVILEGES, because rights cannot be taken away, only privileges. The only way that someone could say no to a Mosque because it’s too close to ‘Ground Zero’, is an underlying belief that Islam is somehow ultimately to blame for the attacks of 9/11. Would you allow a Methodist Church? Catholic? Jewish? HAve you noticed all of the porn shops, strip clubs, adult book stores, bars etc around ground Zero? That’s ok, but a church isn’t? Nice!
There is a difference between supporting our religious freedom and saying build the mosque. I hope they don’t build the mosque but I realize that they have the right to do so and would totally support that right and support it very strongly.
Anyway, it’s another big victory fro the GOP. They’ve turned a local, small, basically “personal” news story that doesn’t really affect anyone outside the dozen people originally involved into something the whole country is wasting its time on, filling people with road-rage level passion.
Meanwhile, the climate roasts, nobody’s hiring despite huge corporate profits, and they’re looking for ways to take Bret’s pension away.
Terry Schiavo, we hardly knew ye!
Remember the old adage? Keep your friends close and your “enemies” closer. The more you disenfranchise segments of society the less control you have. Work it, people!
What do the opponents object to? The community center’s services for the elderly? Its day care program? The 9/11 memorial it will house?
After 9/11, we were told ‘they’ hate us for our freedom. The venal politicians seem hell bent on solving this problem by removing the freedom aspect.
I live in America. Regardless of what Rick Lazio, Carl Paladino, Sarah Palin or their ilk think, my country believes both in religious freedom and private property rights. My country’s instincts, however imperfect in execution, are fundamentally for fairness. There is always a hateful minority who want to oppress those different from them but it is just that, a minority… a minority who believes in un-American values. Already, you’re seeing opposition to other Islamic building projects in places like Tennessee, Wisconsin and California, far removed from Ground Zero. The far right claimed our military aggressions were to bring freedom to Iraqis and Afghans; why then do they consistently oppose freedoms for Americans (gays, Muslims, etc)? Sarah Palin’s America may oppose it but the real America won’t betray its values to stop this project.
Let me ask all of you in favor of the Islamic Center (whatever) being built- where is your outrage over the blocking of a Greek Orthodox church being REBUILT after being crushed when the Towers fell? The Greek Church was barred from construction due to height restrictions and other rather stupid reasons, yet the Mosque/Islamic Center has no such restrictions. Where’s the sense of moral outrage for this travesty?
BTW- this bigotry works both ways. Many of you are bigoted against your own countrymen who lead lives of faith you do not believe in or that irritate you because their values lead them to judge you as less than you could be. Just be thankful those faiths don’t follow Islams creed of conversion by the sword.
Pete- Excellent idea. But fair play only applies to the west. You should know that by know.
We don’t live in Saudi Arabia or Iran or wherever they suppress religious freedoms, we’re Americans. Who cares what they do.
I am bigoted against ignorance. I’m also bigoted against conservatives who scream for government intervention when it suits them, and then cry when there is too much government in our lives. Follow the money? Consider it a rebate for all the oil we buy over there. I’d rather see them spend the money here then have us spend it over there. The reversal is kind of refreshing.
Thanks, Brian. I was trying to find the words for this argument, and finally read them here. Those relatives of 9/11 victims who are offended by the mosque confuse me. A whole religion is to blame? If a mosque can’t be built there, should we also do away with falafel stands and Turkish rug stores in the vicinity? Perhaps practicing Muslims should be allowed no closer than Brooklyn? Where does this kind of crazy thinking end? And shame on any politician who got on board with this.
So, if someone opens an adult store (Named ‘Heaven on Earth’) next to a church. would everyone defending the mosque defend the adult store or is their a difference?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do defend the right to open an adult store anywhere, including in the new Freedom Towers if they ever go get built.
Let’s be adult about this.
And Bret, I made my suggestion to our gutless politicians. They were gutless when it came to what Hitler was doing in Europe before we went to war and they remain gutless when speaking to leaders of other countries.
I am not suggesting we force any country to follow our laws or our culture. I am only suggesting we at least tell them what we think and stop all the phony smiling just to get their oil. They need to sell their oil to someone if they don’t want to sell oil to us. None of them have a darn thing worth buying other than their oil. What is going to prevent us from buying the oil from who they do sell to? Can’t we set up shell corporations to buy all the oil we want? The oil embargo worked only because we let it work.
Knuck, read the link. Of course it’s about Islam (I keep forgetting that sarcasm doesn’t translate well in blog comments) and the time line shows that. The blogger that “broke” the story is obviously anti-Islam. The story was then picked up by the NY Post which continues to flog the story almost every day. I think one of the biggest mistakes ever made was letting Ruppert Murdoch become a citizen of the USA.
As for the Greek Church being “blocked” from being rebuilt, that appears to be quite a stretch and more right wing dishonesty. Seems the Greek Church wanted more than a $20 million dollar subsidy from the Port Authority (our tax dollars) so talks have been at a standstill.
You can read about the original, very tiny Greek Church that was destroyed here.
You can get a sense of why the rebuilding of the church is being “blocked” here.
Key paragraph: “We made an extraordinarily generous offer to resolve this issue and spent eight months trying to finalize that offer, and the church wanted even more on top of that,” said Stephen Sigmund, a spokesman for the Port Authority. “They have now given us no choice but to move on to ensure the site is not delayed. The church continues to have the right to rebuild at their original site, and we will pay fair market value for the underground space beneath that building.”
Count on the right to have the real scoop.
Of what, I’m not sure.
“So, if someone opens an adult store (Named ‘Heaven on Earth’) next to a church. would everyone defending the mosque defend the adult store or is their a difference?”
Betty, if it’s allowed in the zoning code, there is no difference.
Just asking, are you always this interested in local zoning board meetings that don’t affect you?
So, if someone opens an adult store (Named ‘Heaven on Earth’) next to a church. would everyone defending the mosque defend the adult store or is their a difference?
right because islam is just like pornography. not to put too fine a point on it, but that smacks of exactly the bigotry brian is talking about.
I had a customer yesterday who equated Islam with car-bombers. We got into a spirited discussion – naw, I’ll call it an argument – over the issue, and he went right to stopping that Islamic Center/mosque near Ground Zero. He’d eaten up the myths perpetuated by biased media branches, and couldn’t be convinced otherwise. He reminded me of the kind of poison I heard in coverage of the public hearing over whether a mosque might be built in Staten Island – absolutely shocking and verging on fascistic.
I wanted to point out that Ground Zero wasn’t the site of some great landmark to Democracy or Freedom; it was named after World Trade, the capitalistic principle that has abused so many at the lower rungs of society. The crime they committed was horrific, but they didn’t represent any true religion except the ‘religion’ of power, violence, and anarchy. And that ain’t Islam, or Christianity, or Judaism, or any other real faith.
Many of you are bigoted against your own countrymen who lead lives of faith you do not believe in or that irritate you because their values lead them to judge you as less than you could be.
huh? do you have even the remotest shred of evidence that “many” people here feel that way?
but let me answer that for you: of course you don’t. it’s just the usual conservative persecution complex.
hmmm interesting. So, if local zoning (APA) tells me I can do something with my land then everybody else has to shutup and take it. Don’t waste your time once the local zoning board has ruled. They are the supreme beings. i.c.
Brian:
I refuse to accept the premise that disagreeing with your point of view is un-American or bigoted.
What if terrorists fund this building? All your “religious freedom” jazz is bunk.
I am pro-American, pro-religious freedom, all for mosques where ever muslims, locally, want to put them.
This is not that, so stop with the name calling. You could be wrong, you know.
Christopher Hitchens has disassembled the anti-mosque argument in his usual pugnacious style:http://www.slate.com/id/2263334/
As an atheist who cares little about the sacredness of worship, I fully support the right to build an Islamic center wherever it is legal in the US. Maybe the Scientologists could build next door, and followers of Sun Yung Moon next to them.
If the local zoning board says you can only have an 8ft fence, then you build a 10ft fence, they will tell you to take it down or you can apply for a variance. If you build an 8ft. fence then you’re in the clear even if your neighbor wants you to have a 4ft. fence. So yes you would have to shutup and take it or go to your town board and have the ordinance changed. Democracy is great.
jdm,
you keep going on about “follow the money” and dropping hints that terrorists or islamists or some unsavory characters are behind the cordoba center. so let’s ask again, do you have even a shred of evidence for this? what reason do you have to think terrorists might be behind it? you’ve recently noted that you pride yourself on researching your comments, yet for some reason you seem to keep on punting on this one.
or is it that you’re much more interested in spreading baseless smears and, yes, fanning the flames of bigotry?
i should also point again to oa‘s recent link to this fareed zakaria piece which helpfully points out that man spearheading the center has roundly and repeatedly denounced terrorism. it would make for kind of a funny thing for terrorists to support, you know?
Thanks oa for that link to Hitchens. I totally agree with him here; from that article in Slate:
“One might think that a mosque or madrassa was being proposed in the place of the fallen towers themselves or atop the atomized ingredients of what was once a mass grave. (In point of fact, the best we have been able to do with the actual site, after almost a decade, is to create a huge, noisy, and dirty pit with almost no visible architectural progress. Perhaps resentment at the relative speed of the proposed Cordoba House is a subconscious by-product of embarrassment at this local and national disgrace.)”
Exactly if we had our act together after 10 years and had this thing re-built I honestly don’t think we would be fumigating so much over some cultural center Islamic or otherwise a couple of blocks away.
Here is a pretty much typical conservative response to the Cordoba House issue:
“I take a back seat to no one when it comes to religious freedom and religious belief and the right to express that belief, even beliefs that I find abhorrent
Guess what word comes next? But…..
Same guy says:
“I defend the right for Muslims to have places of worship in lower Manhattan
Guess what word comes next? But….
How many times in the past few months have we heard “We need to follow the Constitution. We need to defend the Bill of Rights, but…..
” I am pro-American, pro-religious freedom, all for mosques where ever muslims, locally, want to put them.”
And this is where the lower Manhattan Muslims want to build their mosque and community center (or more likely, where there are able to find the real estate they can afford). So what’s the issue?
“PNElba: “It’s not about Islam.” Are you serious?”
Actually, it’s not really about Islam. It’s about politics. It’s about how two venal Republican politicians (Paladino and Lazio) are light years behind in the polls to Cuomo so they fabricated this non-issue in a pathetic attempt to get the public to pay attention to them. Even if it means these self-described ‘limited government’ types advocating the use of government force to squelch both freedom of religion AND PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS.
And it’s about the businesspeople like Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin pandering to their consumer base by fanning the flames of this bigotry*. Islam is merely the scapegoat of the week use by the far right to advance their political agenda (last week, it was the gays; next week, who knows), not the real object.
(*-some claim that it’s only about the specific location of this particular mosque/community center… and for some, it may well be. But several media outlets are reporting on how bigots are using this particular flap as fuel to object to mosque/community center projects in far flung states like TN, CA and WI… for some, “too close to Ground Zero” for an Islamic building project really means “anywhere in a America.”)
Mervel, you just touched a nerve there. Why haven’t we re-built? You wouldn’t even notice a mosque in the shadow of the Freedom Towers. Where are they? Probably Obama’s fault (sarcasm).
You know… a good part of our foreign policy and national defense strategy is based encouraging moderate Muslims to stand up for themselves against the violent, extremist strand of their faith and to support them when they do. So what’s our strategy at home? To tar them all with the same brush. To act like all Muslims were responsible for 9/11 and that they should all face the collective punishment of being allowed nowhere near the site.
Yogi Berra famously said the secret of management was to keep the guys who hated you away from the guys who were undecided. The strategy here seems to be to push them together.
The commenters here get real touchy when the word ‘bigotry’ is mentioned. You think we’re putting words in your mouth. Ok fine. I ask these folks to explain in THEIR OWN WORDS…
a) WHY is it unacceptable to build a mosque and community center four blocks away from the former Twin Towers site and…
b) How close/far away to that site would such a project be acceptable?
You don’t like the motives being imputed to you. Help clear up the alleged misunderstanding. Instead of putting things between the lines, let’s get everything out in the open and go from there.