Build the mosque
If nothing else, the debate over the “Ground Zero” mosque proves once again that there are demagogues and bigots in every society, within every religion.
What’s more, it proves that there are cowardly enablers — who cede power and authority to those who would close our minds, narrow our liberties, and manipulate our worst passions — within every religion.
Here it is bluntly: Anyone who argues that Islam is an evil or violent faith is a bigot.
Anyone who would try to bully a peaceful congregation into closing their place of worship is unAmerican.
The same bigoted arguments have been made within our society for decades, about Roman Catholics, Jews, Protestants, and Mormons.
I don’t call these arguments ignorant because I believe that many of the purveyors of this filthy hatred know better. They have lived or traveled in Muslim countries where extremism is no more common than in American cities.
They have read the literature and listened to the music and (yes) heard the profound spiritual teachings of this ancient and complex faith.
What’s more, they have dealt with societies where it is the Christians (Kosovo) or the Hindus (India) who are committing atrocities against Muslims — in the name of their faith and their God.
In short, these bigots know better.
And the appeasers who fail to confront them know well where this kind of politically-motivated intolerance leads.
The people who would build this place of worship are our own citizens. They are Americans, wishing to congregate in peace and worship their God without interference from the government or their neighbors.
It has become a cliche to suggest that when we act out of fear and ugliness, then the terrorists have truly won.
This case is more loathsome because those who would play on our fears and our prejudices do so with such calculation, such callow intent.
America is a better place than this. We are a society of laws and freedoms, not of whisper campaigns and sectarian zealots.
Building the mosque in the heart of the world’s most vibrant an d cosmopolitan city will prove that. Rejecting bullies and demagogues at the ballot box in November will drive the message home.
Mr Sandwich, just give me some time I WILL find a way to blame Obama!
Brian:
First, I will answer questions a.
a) because it may be terrorists doing the building. The same ones who flew the 747s into them on 9/11. Prove that it isn’t.
Now, for my thoughts.
You, Brian Mann, speak as though you are the arbitrar of what is or isn’t American. You are not.
You are one person with one opinion. There are as many different opinions as there are participants in your blog. We are all equally as American as you.
You are one person with one opinion. If my opinion is different than yours, I am not a bigot.
You, in your use of the words “bigotry” and “un-American” represent a group of people who think themselves so much better than others, they can dictate what is American, or bigotry.
You cannot. You have to accept the fact that you are one person, with one opinion, just like everyone else.
My first post consisted of 16 words and a link. Seems like Brian and Knuck only read the first 4 words and not the next 12 words and didn’t bother clicking the link. The time line clearly shows this issue started as an anti-Islam issue.
But I agree about the pandering. The politicians who oppose the community center are going to get more votes than politicians who favor the project.
Anon, first there are two Brian’s here. Brian Mann who wrote the post and Brian who has made a few comments on Brian Mann’s post. And, maybe I missed it, but I don’t see where either of them called anyone “un-American”.
Also, Brian Mann specifically said “Anyone who argues that Islam is an evil or violent faith is a bigot.” He’s right.
a) because it may be terrorists doing the building. The same ones who flew the 747s into them on 9/11. Prove that it isn’t. The logic of that statement is known as an argument from ignorance.
Do you really think so PNE?
But maybe the wording is just wrong? I don’t think a politician should favor or oppose the project. I think Obama’s first comments were correct they have the obvious constitutional right to do this if the local zoning allows it, end of story.
As far as favoring or opposing it then we are into feelings and opinions and spiritual beliefs.
It is kind of an old debate though isn’t it? I mean I thought this is what we did in 10th grade debate class or 10th grade civics, learn about the Bill of Rights, how even though we may not like something we allow it so everyone’s rights are protected.
I hate to weigh in on this issue and be called a bigot but here goes. First of all I am basically for the project on purely libertarian grounds, but unlike Brian I take pause. I suppose Brian is correct and the folks (like the 911 survivor groups) opposed to this project are bigots. But there could be more to it. I think this area, given the horrors that occurred there is considered to be more than your average American soil, perhaps something akin to hollowed ground. Perhaps we should treat this issue differently than we would any other church or mosque project? I read an opinion piece in the Washington Post recently that made a good comparison. The writer said that yes only a small fraction of Muslims harbor radical tendencies, just like only a minority of Germans today harbor Nazi ideologies. However would the world allow a German cultural center to be built at the site of a former Nazi concentration camp? That is doubtful, we have certain sensitivity towards the survivors of that atrocity and their families, just as perhaps we should towards the families and survivors of 911. Purely on constitutional grounds that mosque could and perhaps should be built. But is it only hatred and bigotry that is motivating those who oppose the project?
Brian:
a) because the people ultimately paying for the mosque and the people who flew the 747s into the Twin Towers may be the same people.
b) unacceptable anywhere under these conditions
Hermit:
Where do you think the money is coming from?
I prefer Turd, mr. sandwich makes me look for my father.
Obama was accused of hedging his position, therefore he came out on the correct side in this argument. As far as that being an opinion, just look at the local zoning. That should tell you who is correct and who is wrong. It doesn’t matter what is being built as long as it conforms to building codes. This touchy, feeling crap seem more like a liberal opinion than anything else. It reminds me of an old line from the Simpsons “Won’t anyone please think of the children”.
PNelba:
Where do you think the money is coming from?
JDM: Who cares where the money comes from. Spend it here instead of over there. We’re getting a return on our investment. Do you not think the CIA and FBI will be all over this place. There is already a mosque 3 blocks from ground zero. This one will be 2 blocks. Big deal.
Gee, I don’t know the answer to your questions, Brian. However, I do know the legal right has been given to build the mosque and people still have the right to speak out against it being built. President Obama has said he feels it is unwise. Is he a “bigot”?
Where is the money coming from? The same people who flew the 747s into them on 9/11? Ghosts?
I don’t like any Mosque being built because they do not proclaim the Truth of Christ.
So liking or promoting IS different than protecting my rights which are only protected if those I don’t agree with are protected.
Maybe if we asked the Muslims to build the Freedom Towers, they would be up already.
If they did that with their own money, would we let them build their mosque a few blocks away?
Really, why care?
Yeah you either have to be against ALL mosque building or not against any.
The next step would be banning head scarves for Muslim women in schools like they did in France.
hermit thrush says:
August 17, 2010 at 12:27 pm
Many of you are bigoted against your own countrymen who lead lives of faith you do not believe in or that irritate you because their values lead them to judge you as less than you could be.
huh? do you have even the remotest shred of evidence that “many” people here feel that way?
but let me answer that for you: of course you don’t. it’s just the usual conservative persecution complex.
Provided the link so you know which question I’m answering-
HT, many people here have made very strong remarks, bigoted remarks, about Christians here before. Do we need to find someone with better Google skills than mine to catalog them all?
Pete Klein says:
August 17, 2010 at 11:32 am
And Bret, I made my suggestion to our gutless politicians.
I am not suggesting we force any country to follow our laws or our culture. I am only suggesting we at least tell them what we think and stop all the phony smiling just to get their oil.
Pete, pretty much what I’ve been saying. Why are we the only nation required to “play nice”? Makes no sense.
Let me try to clear up how I feel about this. Many people here say this is bigoted, that feeling this is wrong is somehow anti-freedom or anti-American. Yet, I’m betting some of those same people find the upcoming Glenn Beck 8/28 Rally at the Lincoln Memorial “wrong”. After all, he’s a right wing commentator and he’s holding a rally at the same spot Dr. King made one of his famous speeches, on the anniversary date of that speech. Left wing commentators say this is wrong. Are they bigots too?
My theory is we share similar feelings about 2 very different subjects.
yes bret please provide links. i follow things pretty closely around here — probably not as closely as you, but still not bad. and i just don’t remember seeing anything* that rises to the level of anti-christian bigotry, let alone such bigotry from many people. you don’t have to catalog it all by any means, but a few examples would be a great start. otherwise i think you’re just blowing smoke.
*of course i don’t think it should be hard to find a single instance of anti-christian bigotry and it’s easy enough to forget something like that. what i’m challenging is that there’s anything even approaching a pattern or a trend.
you know jdm, when you go throwing around wild seemingly unfounded accusations, usually the onus is on you to back them up. and obviously you have nothing at all. it’s just slander, plain and simple, nasty as it gets.
you know for that matter how i do know you’re not the agent of some right-wing terrorist organization bent on overthrow of the government? i mean, i can’t prove that you’re not. and you’re a right-winger, and there exist right-wingers who really do want to take the government out. sounds pretty suspicious to me.
H-T, I’m with you. I don’t recall seeing any “all Christians are bad” on this blog either. But maybe it’s in the eye of the beholder.
but bret, even aside from the issue itself of beck having a rally at the lincoln memorial,* a much better comparison would be if he were having a rally two blocks away. if that were the case i’m positive that absolutely no one on the whole planet would care.
*i can assure you that the left wing commentators i read don’t care about this anyway, as this is the first time i’ve heard about it. which commentators have raised a fuss? i hope you’re not falling for beck’s own victimization complex.
JDM said: “This is about politics. Follow the money.”
I followed, and JDM is right!
Look, Fox, which is promoting the backlash against the mosque, is secretly plotting, cleverly, to distract from a real threat to the USA–a Sharia-law-supported media takeover!
Why? Because Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal is Fox’s No. 2 shareholder.
Get this: “Earlier this year, News Corp. invested $70 million for a 9% stake in Alwaleed’s Middle Eastern media and entertainment company, Rotana, which “owns the Arab world’s largest record label and about 40% of the region’s movies — most of which are Egyptian — and operates 11 free-to-air television channels, two of which are through a partnership with News Corp.,” according to Reuters.”
Meanwhile, “Saudi Arabia, which is ruled by Alwaleed’s uncle King Abdullah, is, of course, an authoritarian petro-monarchy that actually is governed by Sharia law and is known as one of the top global sponsors of terrorism.”
This is the greatest head fake of all time. Fox creates a diversion by making a media circus out of a local zoning board decision, all the while allowing infiltrators from the House of Saud to control our TV sets, ala “The Outer Limits,” and our precious bodily fluids.
Thank you, JDM! Thank you!
http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/investing/news-corp-the-saudi-prince-and-the-ground-zero-mosque/19593554/
Interesting oa. So Prince Alwaleed bin Talal is a Saudi muslim. If he happens to invest in Park51 (Cordoba House), that is a reason to prevent construction of the community center. So, I guess it is also a reason to get rid of News Corp (FOX News), Citigroup, Kodak, Time Warner, PepsiCo and Hp, to name just a few of Alwaleed’s investments.
Alas, mervel, your age (and mine) is betrayed. Civics is no longer an offering in in our public schools. Should “civics” and “critical thinking” be part of our common culture literacy the opportunistic politicians Brian Mann so rightly criticizes would find a minutely small set of constituents gullible enough to be exploited by this prejudicial pandering about an Islamic center.
Perhaps the removal of a distinct civics and critical-thinking courses is a right (or left) wing conspiracy.
oky-doy, OA. I gotcha (insert wink) Now why are you assuming the mosque doesn’t affect me?
ahaha your right JG.
How about government don’t they have government at least anymore????
I keep thinking I am missing something because there is certainly no case here for stopping the Mosque from being built and any old man not even very bright at that; who took civics in 9th or 10th grade could point out. Religious freedom is pretty basic. So I keep thinking we are just talking about Islam in the US which is more interesting in my opinion so I ramble on about that.
Someone just blinked.
CBS 2′s Marcia Kramer has learned it looks as if the developers of the mosque may be willing to budge and move away from the Park 51 location where they originally planned the construction.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/08/17/paterson-king-hope-for-mosque-compromise/
I’m glad everyone had a good laugh over “follow the money”.
I laugh, too, every time someone mentions man-made global warming!
I did not have a good laugh over it. The Saudi governments program to build Mosques around the globe and fund the large Mosques in the US does bother me, particularly when they have no respect for Christianity in their country. It also points out that this project may not be an American Muslim project at all but one funded by Middle East Muslim sources. But still they have the right to build a Mosque.
Sad, sad, sad.
This issue is an attempt by lazy politicians to keep from discussing other, very important issues which affect all of us, issues such as the economy, climate change, the war, human rights, immigration, and taxes. If politicians could address these issues by offering concrete ideas on making improvements (not just saying they are for or against said subjects), our world could become a better place for all.
FYI: The proposed building is not a mosque. It cannot be seen from the World Trade Center site. The area where it will be built is not a neighborhood most of us would choose to live or worship in.
Pay attention to the facts, folks. Indeed, insist on them.
Don’t let the politicians distract you with diatribes and lies from the issues that need their attention.
Insist that they be truthful.
Don’t tolerate diversions.
HT, on Beck- http://newsbusters.org/blogs/jeff-poor/2010/06/26/bill-press-glenn-beck-rally-lincoln-memorial-granting-al-qaeda-permission
There’s more, but I’m too lazy to do all that work. Same for the Christian thing. There’s been plenty of people going on about how terrible the Christian faiths are, how they murdered and pillaged and covered up all sorts of sins. Honestly, I’m tired of you failing to see anything beyond your own little version of the world. Of course you’re probably tired of me too. Same for PNElba.
BTW- the Greek church tells a different story than the Port Authority. Who do you believe? The truth probably is somewhere in the middle.
Great thread, with lots of great ideas on how to fix the economy and deal with possible food shortages resulting from the Russian fires!
We, the NCPR commenters, know how to tackle what matters!
Huh, I was wondering why this was going to named the Cordoba Center. Nothing meaningful here, move along folks…
Cordoba- was captured in 711[3] by a Muslim army: in 716 it became a provincial capital, depending from the Caliphate of Damascus; in Arabic it was known as قرطبة (Qurṭuba). In May 766, it was elected as capital of the independent Muslim emirate of al-Andalus, later a Caliphate itself. During the caliphate apogee (1000 AD), Córdoba had a population of roughly 400,000 inhabitants,[4] though estimates range between 250,000 and 500,000. In the 10th-11th centuries Córdoba was one of the most advanced cities in the world, as well as a great cultural, political, financial and economic centre. The Great Mosque of Córdoba (3rd largest in the world) dates back to this time; under caliph Al-Hakam II Córdoba received what was then the largest library in the world, housing from 400,000 to 1,000,000 volumes.
After the fall of the caliphate (1031), Córdoba became the capital of a Republican independent taifa. This short-lived state was conquered by Al-Mu’tamid ibn Abbad, lord of Seville, in 1070. In turn, the latter was overthrown by the Almoravids, later replaced by the Almohads.
During the latter’s domination the city declined, the role of capital of Muslim al-Andalus having been given to Seville. On 29 June 1236, after a siege of several months, it was captured by King Ferdinand III of Castile, during the Spanish Reconquista.
“Honestly, I’m tired of you failing to see anything beyond your own little version of the world.”
All would be right in the World bret, if everyone was as thoughtful, all seeing, understanding, compassionate, tolerant and god-fearing as you.
no bret i don’t think that’s good enough. accusing “many” people here of anti-christian bigotry is a serious charge. it needs to be backed up with examples. if you can find the examples, share them. if you can’t, then maybe you should reconsider your view.
“because the people ultimately paying for the mosque and the people who flew the 747s into the Twin Towers may be the same people”
The people who flew the 747s into the Twin Towers are thankfully dead so this is not an issue.
PNELba- Waaa! He’s a meany! Kindly stop the hissy fit. Open your mind to the fact other people can have valid opinions that may not seem right to you.
HT- No. It is good enough and I’m not playing any stupid games. You said yourself you don’t follow it that closely and maybe “many” isn’t the perfect descriptor of the events I recall. I don’t log everything in a note book so I can refer back to it. You can either take my word for it or not, I don’t care. I’ve seen people here say bigoted things about the Christian faiths before, many times. Accept it or not. Makes no difference to me.
bret, your new comment is somehow the perfect encapsulation of the problem.
you wrote, “You said yourself you don’t follow it that closely.” which is almost the opposite of what i actually said: “i follow things pretty closely around here — probably not as closely as you, but still not bad”!
and sure enough, it’s a trivial point in and of itself. i couldn’t care less about it. but it perfectly illustrates a phenomenon i see lots of on this blog, namely a real detachment from reality from you and other conservative commenters.
so no, i flat out don’t believe you that there’s been lots of anti-christian bigotry on this blog. why should i take your word for what’s appeared in god-knows-how-many comments over the past weeks and months, when you can’t even correctly read what’s appeared in this very thread? you’re someone who regards providing reliable evidence for his claims — one of the most basic components of any reasonable debate! — as a “stupid game.” why should anyone pay you any credibility at all?
Bret, actually I believe I said you were “thoughtful, all seeing, understanding, compassionate, tolerant and god-fearing.” Why are you attacking me for a complement?
HT, you said you don’t follow things as closely as I do which really isn’t that closely, so you don’t follow things that closely!!! Jeeze! If I followed things closely I’d make the notes required to refute your sure to appear argument over any opinion I dare state. Arguing with you is fun, but not THAT fun.
PNElba- Oh, thanks. And I think you’re one of the brightest, most open minded, intuitive people I’ve come across. Sorry for the mix up.
Hey PNElba, and everyone else, a link is nice for someone who has the time to follow it but don’t expect that everyone will. Sarcasm is a dangerous thing!
Most of the commenter’s here are members of the NCPR staff. Do these postings give these people some sort of jounalistic credibility that the rest of us should envy? We get enough of these people on the radio we do not need more. Especially Brian Mann whom was sent to the Gulf of Mexico wasting public grants and donations. This is not a good offering for this paper and does not represent the subscribers. It used to be a people’s weekly why did you let these people horn in?