The tobacco tax and New York’s first people
Things could get interesting on Monday.
Yesterday, Governor Paterson reiterated his intent to collect taxes on cigarettes sold to non-natives at native-owned stores. He worried openly on WOR Radio about the possible repercussions:
This is a very dangerous situation. There is a, I think, high alert. The State Police tell us over and over again that there could be violence and death as a result of some of the measures we’re taking.
The warning signs are there. Members of the Seneca Nation protested and burned tires to fend off the tax collection in 1992 and 1997, closing the New York State Thruway both times.
A blog called Seneca Voice urged Seneca Nation members to “start setting up some fires here and there just to let the public know that we are serious and we are ready to battle.”
The Seneca Nation says it has no connection to the blog. Nation President Barry Snyder Seneca has repeated “violence is not on our agenda”, but he’s acknowledged some tribal members may not agree.
Mayor Michael Bloomberg inflamed the situation when he urged Paterson to “get a cowboy hat and a shotgun” to enforce the tax collection.
Tribes statewide, and native groups around the country, were outraged, calling the comments “racist, offensive and hurtful.” They said it would be like conjuring the spectre of Hitler to Jews, or the KKK to African-Americans. Paterson called the comments “inappropriate”.
Bloomberg didn’t even apologize.
In Indian Country, this is all much bigger than cigarettes.
At issue here is tribal sovereignty, and it cuts to the heart of New York’s relationship with the tribes of the Iroquois Confederacy, who once owned all the land here.
The legal ramifications of what happened when Europeans took native land in the 1700s are playing out today in the context of land claims, cigarette sales, casino construction, and plenty of lawsuits.
But when you talk to many native people who live on the reservations – the parcels of land they have left – the issues are about identity and spirituality, family and survival.
And those are very serious things for Governor Paterson to be messing with in the name of collecting $200 million to fill Albany’s coffers.
The issue isn’t about sovereignty David. Sovereignty is just a handy word for “You can’t touch me, even though we both know what I’m doing is wrong”. It’s about money and power and finding loopholes. That goes for both sides.
We have already taken so much from the native Americans. Why can’t we finally just leave them alone.
As things now stand, I’m in favor of the Native Americans taking over the country.
Talk about Bigotry, every single elected official is a bigot when it comes to the Indians.
There should not be any tax on tobacco products beyond the sales tax.
There should not be any tax on anything beyond the sales tax.
Cigarettes are good for you. The help kill germs caused by the hot air coming out of Albany and Washington.
If God didn’t want us to have tobacco, he wouldn’t have created it. Same goes for everything created by God.
so if i get pulled over in arizona i have to show proof of citenzenship, and if i wanted to buy smokes in ny, i need to show proof of native american indianship. so what papers do i need to be left alone, shut up in my house, bothering no-one, just bleeding out tax money for the system to eat? can i still do that?
this is the land of the free?
Article 1 section 8 of the US Constitution does give the power to regulate commerce with indian tribes to the Federal government and not State governments. Hasn’t the Supreme Court ever ruled on this?
The government would much rather Native people’s come begging to them for welfare checks than actually make a living independent of the government. This is a power move to do that and it is about identity.
I agree with you Paul. We (non natives) too believe that we can live far more closely to the founders’ ideals if we are governed by the Senecas. The crooked politicians in Albany do not represent anything I stand for.
We provide education, highways, etc. to the natives on the reservations.They pay no taxes. Natives have told me that when they work off the reservation they pay no income taxes and if their employer withholds taxes they get it all back at the end of the year. It seems to me that asking them to collect taxes on cigarettes sold to non-natives is not an unreasonable reciprocation.
James,
I hear where you are coming from, but remember in the past the Federal Government has broken almost every promise made to native Americans. In my opinion they have “earned” the right to the things they have tax free.
We took their land without compensation why not try and make it right now. Letting them do this tax free is the least we can do.
I just think that a market based solution to self determination is better than public assistance. Smuggling is a market based solution also and that will only increase if we increase taxes on the ciggs. This at least has economic value it creates jobs and incomes in a legal way without the organized crime.
What about the public health aspect? Discouraging youth smoking? Second hand smoke? THere is no economic value to the sale of cigarettes; cigs kill.
All issues aside, Mayor Bloomberg’s words are VILE, and he brings embarrassment and shame to New York City through them. The mayor has had plenty of time to issue an apology, yet he does not come forth. This allows a poison to circulate ever more deeply in America’s conscience. This should not be so. I am glad to know that NY Governor Patterson at least told the press that the mayor’s words are inappropriate. However, the accounts I read said the governor thought that “because of dangerous circumstances.” To me, that’s telling Mayor Bloomberg it’s okay to make stone-racist public remarks — unless the govt. is already on shaky ground. No, since Mayor Bloomberg is not being responsible for his hurtful actions, it is time for the New York and US govts. to do the right thing and officially censure him.
I would imagine there are some people (maybe they even donate money to our holier than thou elected reps) who love seeing the price on tobacco products go up and up so they can make a fortune on the black market – just as they did when booze was illegal.
I know, technically tobacco is not illegal. In all practicality, tobacco is illegal.
I view all the anti-tobacco people as intrinsically evil. They hate freedom. They want to control other people. They get their kicks controlling other people. It’s all about power.
“We took their land”. I am so sick of hearing that. They took the land from those who were here before them. They enslaved their enemies. It’s the same to world over. Fact is they are playing the system and we simply ca’;t afford it anymore.
“We took their land”. I am so sick of hearing that.
Bret, too bad. I don’t have a problem with conquest.
But we gave them our word. And then we broke it, over and over again. In my book that isn’t right.
I am surprised. Some of the folks here usually seem to be opposed to taxes. I guess it depends on who is getting taxed. Tax, tax, tax. Keep it up and we will never get out of this recession.
I guess we are “victims” of native Americans now too.
“Americans vs Americans.” $4.35 is the value of a life according to Paterson & Bloomberg. From these two, a freed slave & holocaust survivor to be “spouting” that somebody will die over cigarette tax is plain ignorance. Deport them to Iran with the rest of Americas haters!STOP THE SPENDING!!!
What about the public health aspect of preventing second hand smoke-derived lung cancer by discouraging smoking? And why can’t the Indians find a way to make money that doesn’t involve selling toxic substances?
I think that is a good point Paul.
I am relatively conservative on most issues (not all), and this to me is very basic. The large over controlling over reaching state government of New York, wants to increase taxes to increase government revenue from a people that have already had their property rights abridged by this same government.
Philosophically we have a tribal people who wish to be self sufficient, not dependant on handouts from the government, but want to have their own free market businesses and Leviathan wants to destroy that, I can’t imagine why any true conservative would not agree with the Natives on this issue?
Mervel, the point is the tribal people in the this discussion DO NOT want to be self sufficient and not receive handouts from Gov’t (taxpayers). The rez is a giant money pit. If they want to be a soverign nation then by all means, go for it. Cut the Federal and State Gov’t services (Provincial too) and let them sink or swim on their own like the rest of us. But that won’t happen. If you talk about cutting aide to the rez or taxing them the gnashing of teeth and wailing start. Let them be their own nation, lets see how long they last without Uncle Sugar sending the dollars in.
To be clear, I don’t think collecting the taxes is worth anyone getting hurt over. That is what will happen. The organized criminal elements on the rez are far better armed than our police and have little fear of repercussions, unlike our police who have no such luxury. What we need to do is cut spending but that idea goes nowhere among our spoiled electorate that are so dependent on their own version of handouts. We’re all guilt of that.
I admire Pattersons straight to the point stance on this, but it’s not worth killing people over.
I think the plan of going with Native brands only sold on the reserve the whole issue will be avoided anyway, which is a smart move by the tribe.
Let’s get real.
I’m down in the Bronx for a short vacation and I can tell you the state will probably lose money because of their greed to make money off of cigarettes.
People are traveling out of the city to buy cigarettes. They are having friends by cigarettes in other states and either bring them or ship them in. This isn’t even counting the bootlegging going on. Stores are hurting and some worry about going out of business. Most stores now carry and promote roll your own cigarettes.
And could we please stop the lying about second hand smoke. It is total garbage.
Pete Klein,
I have no sympathy for a failing business that sells toxic substances. Any business that makes money by selling toxic substances does not, in my view, deserve to be in business.
And second hand smoke is not garbage; the health effects of second hand smoke are real.
Let’s see….the CDC, NIH, Mayo Clinic, ACS etc. all warn about the dangers of second-hand smoke. If you don’t accept the warnings, my question to you is “do you feel lucky?”
A huge study by James Enstrom, published in the British Medical Journal, concluded causal
relation between environmental tobacco smoke and
tobacco related mortality, although they do not rule
out a small effect.
Enstrom has been funded by Philip Morris and the Center for Indoor Research – tobacco money.
Of course there are also scientists, one a Nobel Prize winner, that don’t accept that infection with HIV is responsible for AIDS.
James Enstrom
What is interesting is that the government by being so involved and dependant on revenue from cigarettes is an accomplice in their promotion. So $7.50 for a pack and the state of NY is taking $4.00, who is the pusher in this scenario?
Where there is a demand there will be supply and this applies to every vice from nicotine addiction to alcoholism to smoking pot.
Cars are toxic. Booze is toxic. Life is toxic.
If it weren’t for death, think how miserable life would be.
Paul, How many generations must pay for what was done to long dead people? I took nothing from the Native Americans, nor did my parents, grandparents or great grandparents. Nor was any of what was done, done to anyone living today. How many generations does it take before the current generation decides to live in the present and work out relationships based on NOW? Judging by the situation in Palestine/Isreal which began in CE 66 with the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the Israelites, we can expect to be arguing about how our ancestors treated the ancestors of Native Americans for at least another 2000 years. Lots of people in this society get the short end of the stick for lots of different reasons. Trying to undo past wrongs won’t fix the present or improve the future.
I agree about the impossibility of undoing past wrongs. This however is about the here and now it is about a current tribe who has a Tribal Reserve right now, it is about a Tribe of people that have a current unique relationship with governments based on being a sovereign nation and based on current law giving them some independence and special rights.
Letting them do business as they see fit and not making them be a water boy for some other government by collecting their taxes is okay it makes sense right now, not as a way to regress past issues and grievances. If you wanted to redress those past issues most of us would have to start sending rent money to Hogansburg.
It’s a strange sort of sovereign nation. Native Americans vote in elections at all levels, they can and have held high office (V.P. under Herbert Hoover). They fight in our military (those who choose to) under the US flag. There are no borders around the reservations with customs and immigration verifying transit from one nation to another or collecting duty on goods purchased there. I attended high school with Natives at Salmon River (off the Res). They work anywhere they want in the US without a work visa or “green card” despite the fact that they insist (lately at least) on issuing their own passports.
You miss my point. If they want to be a sovereign nation that has no responsibility to collect or pay NYS taxes, stop voting in state and national elections. Set up customs and immigration check points around the res and have ICE collect the taxes/duties just like we do at the Canadian and Mexican borders.
i dont really no much right now. i no i am on the natives side and i am going this topic of my senior year exit project so if anyone wants to talk to me more about this and help me that would be great. just give me your input on it. like if your for it or against it so just email me at [email protected].
thanks Malissa
James:
They could charge taxes on stuff grown, processed and manufactured on the reservation. Anything else, imported across the [First Nation] borders would have to be taxed in the US and/or Canada.
The [First Nations] do not produce their own electricity, do not pump and refine their own fuel, do not have their own universities, etc., etc., to summarize the point. Thus, they should only be tax exempt for things of their own making. Otherwise, if they will have to charge taxes to non-natives, then we have to charge them taxes to pay for services that we provide (highway maintenance, plowing, medical, etc., etc.
Its really not a difficult concept to grasp. Furthermore, I too am a native – I was born here!