Next step for the North Country’s tea party
The North Country’s tea party movement has largely avoided flirtations with the zanier end of the conservative spectrum.
Activists here have repeated a simple and legitimate concern about the direction of the Federal government, the amount of debt we are accruing, and our over-dependence on Big Government for our needs.
That agenda has gotten tangled up in the increasingly complicated feud between Conservative Party candidate Doug Hoffman — once seen as the tea party’s standard bearer — and Republican Matt Doheny.
At least one group, Plattsburgh’s UNYTEA, has tied itself in knots trying to figure out who to support down the stretch.
I’m sure tea partiers will want to play a significant role in our politics through Election Day, but my hope is that activists will pivot then and begin formulating ideas to match their passion.
Here’s what I mean.
Americans like to think of Big Government and overspending as something that happens somewhere else. Rural white people like to complain about Welfare Queens — a kind of code for poor, inner city people of color.
Suburban conservatives mutter about big farm subsidies — a kind of code for the massive amounts of pork that flows to America’s small towns.
Everybody points the finger at the next guy. The truth, of course, is that we’re all culpable. Very few places in America suck up more taxpayer pork than the North Country.
Our region is massively dependent on government for everything from our jobs to the capital that we use to spruce up our businesses.
To cite one example, the western side of the 23rd House district is booming these days, not because of any private sector, entrepreneurial inspiration, but because of hundreds of millions of Federal dollars flow to Fort Drum.
In our hearts, we all know that’s unsustainable. It’s not ideology, it’s simple math. You can’t have Big Government without an even bigger private sector to fund it through taxes.
But when you go to the region’s local leaders and citizens, there is almost zero willingness to acknowledge this dangerous addiction. And there is very little thinking or planning for a more independent future.
Here’s where the tea party can come in.
Tea partiers should begin an effort to educate their neighbors about the dangers of over-reliance on government. They should ask every North Country resident to do some simple accounting, something like this:
How much do you pay each year in taxes, and how much do you receive back in direct payments or services? If you’re getting more than you pay for, then yes, you’re part of the problem.
The tea party should work to spark an open debate over what a post-Big Government future might look like.
They should also encourage lawmakers to focus on bringing home money that will actually foster new economic activity, and not simply prop up failing communities.
Obviously, we need to make hard choices. What tax money can be used as seed corn, and what tax money is simply more unsustainable pork?
The bottom line is that the tea party’s knee-jerk agenda — a sudden downsizing of state and Federal spending — would be disastrous to the North Country.
Such a move would plunge us into an economic depression unlike any we’ve seen before.
But the goal of smaller, more sustainable government is still laudable, and even vital.
Once the sound and fury of the election season is over, groups like UNYTEA should turn to the hard work of actually moving us in that direction.
Tags: election10
Well Brian, if you’d like the TP to open peoples minds then a good place to start is not referring to them as crackpot rural white supremacists.
Yes, if only life was so predictable and controllable.
Obviously, no one is controlling the tea party movement. Even UNYTEA is only a small part of the whole, and the whole is a moving target.
I don’t think there is a controllable way to shrink government. Many in elected office think the only way to solidify their base is to build an empire around themselves, and make as many people as possible dependent on their service.
Either the system will collapse and rebuild itself catastrophically (and painfully) or we will all give in and become lemmings to be controlled by elected (and eventually unelected) officials.
Term limits might be an intermediate step.
Brian,
All the points you make are good but I think something is missing.
Yes, there is the divide between urban/suburban and rural. There is also that divide between states and the nation.
Let me start by asking what comes first? Do we think of ourselves as American first, New Yorkers first or Adirondackers first?
I ask because no matter how we think of ourselves, we are citizens of the United States first.
What has this to do with where federal or state dollars are spent? Everything! If I live in the Adirondacks but need to travel to New York City, I am dependent upon all the roads I take, no matter what town, city or county received the money to take care of the roads. I could use other examples but my point is, I would hope and to paraphrase what was once said about GM, what’s good for the North Country is good for New York City and what is good for New York City is good for the North Country.
As we have recently seen with the economic problems of New York banks and Wall Street, what hurts down there hurts up here and everywhere.
We need to remember – No man is an island.
“Our region is massively dependent on government for everything from our jobs to the capital that we use to spruce up our businesses.
To cite one example, … hundreds of millions of Federal dollars flow to Fort Drum.”
So Brian, Should North Country folks have told the Army ‘No, we don’t want a base here’ or should we have offered to pay the tab out of local tax dollars? You see us as sucking up tax dollars unfairly but we are providing resources and services to people downstate and around the country, food, water, energy, education, recreation and defense to name the most obvious, and those things aren’t free. Whether directly or though taxes they have to be paid for for or we can’t deliver.
You keep bringing up this vision of yours that we should be self sustaining though “private sector, entrepreneurial inspiration” but I don’t see anyone in our economic development agencies fighting to keep entrepreneurs from lighting a fire under the North Country economy. So where are these great inspirations?
As Pete Klein observed we are interdependent in this society. The days of total self sufficiency disappeared with the industrial revolution and although the information revolution is once again dispersing us geographically it is making us even more interdependent socially and economically. Welcome the the 21st century.
Well there is the other side to this.
The North Country has hosted many things that the state and federal government needs and many other places are not suited for nor desire. The state needs prisons, the state needs psychiatric hospitals, the state claims it needs a place to lock up violent sexual offenders, the United States needs the 10th Mountain division and a place for them to train that is unique to the Fort Drum reserve. Now the North Country due to our location, our workforce and our willingness to provide these services has stepped up to the plate.
We are providing a needed service in these cases.
Certainly the size and scope of these programs should be looked at. But they are sustainable, the state will always need prisons and the United States will always need the military. In fact law and order and a national defense are two of the basic things that we really do need our government to provide.
I don’t know how you do integrate the tea party message with needed government services? I would just be willing to bet though that Westchester County has no desire to host secure prison like facility for men who have been convicted of being violent sexual offenders with high risks of repeat offense.
Sorry for a little off topic on this one but I was reading this morning and this passage struck me about some of the teaparty ideas. (also sorry about the religious part but I thought it was interesting).
“People today generally raise their voices against the state because they have to pay taxes. This happens because they do not believe that God has said or commanded anything as regards Caesar. They think that what they posses is theirs, even though the Lord says here, Give Caesar what is Caesar’s. What is Caesar’s? The life and property which you swore to him when you made your vow of allegiance. However you oppose your head of state as if you yourself were he, and the head of state had sworn allegiance to you. ”
Martin Luther 1545.
We have what we have because the state gives us peace and security and a stable government.
One of the reasons we are so dependent on government is the exorbiant cost of doing business in NYS. And that is due to the actions of NYC lawmakers, many of whom like Eric Schneiderman, are intent on making it even more costly.
I didn’t interpret Brian’s comments as singling out a particular group but “speaking in character” and laying out how different constituencies view the problem.
Our whole society has reached an unsustainable level of development that we can no longer maintain or afford. We might try an orderly gradual retreat cutting government spending a couple per cent a year.
The size of government is not our only challenge. Social critic James Kunstler sees our decline as a race between financial decline and that caused by costly and scarce fossil fuels.
I have been expecting a depression for 30 years and it never really happened, though we now seem closer than ever. Maybe growth will return, but we may also muddle through many years longer before big government is our undoing.
No, if I were a betting man, I would bet on an energy crisis first. Unfortunately, we might not have much say in choosing our poison.
Our own government is not doing much to prepare the country for our NEXT CRISIS.
As for the tea party, where were these folks over the past decade when tax cuts and unfunded wars were happening? Being a financial grownup also means paying the bills.
I line with Mervel’s post those who oppose taxes would do well to remember the commitment the founders made in the Declaration of Independence “we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor”. Not to “the government” as a separate entity but to “each other”. Patrick Henry said on that Occasion “I am no longer a Virginian; I am an American.
We are the government in this country and that entails an obligation to support one an other with “our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor”.
“We have what we have because the state gives us peace and security and a stable government.”
One interpretation of that is to live in slavery. It is a stable form of government and you do not have to worry about where your next meal is coming from.
Our forefathers had a different view of peace and security. One with limited government and maximum individual contribution. One where hard work and merit was rewarded, and slothfulness provided its own penalty.
There are plenty of choices of government on earth where you can be a secure slave. Cuba, China, North Korea. Have at it.
Don’t assume we want to trade what we have for what they have.
You will find more Cubans risking their lives to get here than vice versa. Why is that?
We are told that Cuba has the best health care available. Why are Americans donning inner tubes and floating themselves over to be Fidel et al??
Is big government the only problem? Don’t big irresponsible corporations–ones that ship jobs overseas when they’re not playing off local governments for tax scams like PILOT programs; that suck up government contract pork (like Ross Perot); that pay off government through lobbying, contributions and outright bribes (eg Jack Abramoff) so they’re not regulated or taxed like companies in other countries; and that commit fraud that pushes whole sectors of the economy into near collapse (Enron and AIG)–don’t they have some part to play in this great American awakening you so zealously seek, Brian?
Or is it all government’s fault, and government’s responsibility?
Talk about nanny statism.
JDM,
I applaud you for coming out against peace and stability. That’s a unique notion.
Also, Cuba has great health care, just no food. Hence the inner tubes.
oa:
Maybe I wasn’t clear. The peace and stability I am against is slavery peace and stability. In my previous post, you will see that word used.
If you are for that, that is a unique notion.
And to your point about corporations. Corporations respond to the market. Big government responds to the electorate.
Both are going to be taught a lesson very soon.
In my reading of Brian Mann’s post the key sentence is “The tea party should work to spark an open debate over what a post-Big Government future might look like.”
This is a reasonable request. It also is respectful of the energy, sincerity, and commitment of tea party members. Moreover, Brian agrees that our present government is financially unsustainable.
Any reduction is public services will hurt, but we must start talking about specific examples of how this might be done not just for the North Country but for governments of all levels throughout our nation.
The present head of Medicare feels that hospitals should reduce costs by 10% in three years without reducing services. I wonder why the state should be in the business of running ski centers, a trivial example
in terms of budgetary impact. An honest appraisal of the military-industrial complex would lead to billions saved. We can go on and on sure that whatever cuts are suggested will be strongly opposed by offended interests.
Let’s start the conversation. It’s only as we become specific that the call for reduced government takes substance and is more than a vague, hollow political phrase.
We have to look at health care costs and we have to look at reducing defense spending. Why we need a military larger than the entire rest of the world combined is not evident to me.
I’m confused with the heavy emphasis on the 23rd. At this point it is pretty unlikely Owens loses, given the GOP division. Aubertine, Russell, and Duprey are all in competitive races, however. I think state legislative races deserve more coverage.
A few observations after reading the responses-
Don’t consider just Drum and prisons when you think about what we give back to the state. I spent a lot of time in NYC and saw nary a cow. We help feed them. Our power is intended for NYC and that’s where it goes. NYC water comes from upstate, as does lumber and pulp and abrasives and talc and marble and….well, you get the idea. We do contribute. But we’re not the majority in population. They may pay more in taxes, but there are simply more of them. We both contribute.
The North Co will not be “self sustaining” in our modern world. Just not gonna happen. Not in the current paradigm. Now if Kunstlers fears occur and oil disappears, we’ll actually be a bit better off than NYC, but it’ll be a whole new ball game with radically different expectations and realities. (BTW DBW- Kunstler is a bigoted fool in many respects. Read The Long Emergency and his depictions of anyone not just like him and from his backyard. Amazing.)
Where was the Tea Party? It was waking up and realizing that our trust was misplaced! Stop acting like the TP was born 50 years ago and was just sitting back waiting for a black man (well, half black) to sit in the White House. That’s garbage. It took George W. Bush to throw the TP into gear. Yeah we were a bit late to the party, but I plead stupidity and faith. I thought he meant what he said, and I was dumb enough to think that he really wasn’t going to spend that much. My bad, I’m trying to fix it now.
Those big irresponsible corporations left because they couldn’t make a decent profit with our taxes and regulations and unions. That we can fix, the damage I’m not so sure we can.
No doubt we need and benefit from a stable gov’t at the local, state and Federal level. But we also are harmed when that gov’t becomes a self sustaining entity of it’s own with more interest in “being” and less in service. Sort of like HAL in “2001”, the manmade machine becomes a sentient being of it’s own, whose own survival outweighs the harm it does. The Founders knew the danger, if not the specifics, and warned of this. We didn’t heed the warning either because of ignorance, greed, apathy or desire. So now we have a huge problem and no simple, easy way to fix it.
So where does the TP and those of similar mindset fit in all this? The over riding common thread for the TP and similar entities is gov’t spending at the Federal level, debt, gov’t interference and overstepping at multiple levels and the sheer arrogance displayed by the Federal Gov’t and many State govt’s. Take back the country, take back the power. Not “take the country backwards”, an easy mistake to make if you don’t understand the reasons. Look at the recurring ideas- Get Congress out of Washington and back in their home districts/States, get them away from the lobbyists and back in touch with the electorate that put them there. That’s a simple thing, we have the telecommunications ability to do this. They really don’t need to be in Washington more than 30-45 days a year. Term limits and limits on their perks- 12 years is enough for anyone. Being able to vote themselves luxurious health care and raises and tax benefits and making themselves immune from real life does not help things at all. We need public servants, not career politicians. CUT THE DEBT!!! Part of why things cost so much is because our dollar is simply fiat currency, backed by nothing more than our reputation. That reputation is falling rapidly. The Federal Reserve needs to be audited, publicly, and we need to get a real handle on our budget and debts. This isn’t going to be pretty, but we simply cannot go forward at this point.
Concentrating on the TP/conservative racial make up or the resident loony population just clouds the facts and issues.
As the country grows (population), so grows the sized of government. So forget about a smaller government.
Could some thing be cut? Yes. Do we really need all the branches of the military we have? Do we really need all the branches of law enforcement we have?
We are constantly being told local government and schools should be consolidated but we never here about branches of the state and federal government being consolidated?
Speaking of law enforcement. Prohibition didn’t work. What makes anyone think the war on drugs will work? It is nothing but a make work program for law enforcement (and the military) and the whole so called criminal justice system. How much money are we blowing to stop what can’t be stopped?
Taxes on the rich. Could we please remember that there was a time when the rich paid a tax rate of 90%? Now some of them (not all of them) are crying their world will come to an end if they have to pay a few percent more than they are now paying. My heart bleeds for them.
Health care. We all know health care costs more and more because people go to the doctor more and more often and demand more and more to stave off the inevitability of death.
Health insurance. One solution would be to simply make health insurance illegal. This might require passing a law that would allow doctors and hospitals to refuse service if someone cant pay cash up front. Not a good idea? Probably not but it would result in governments and businesses being relieved of having to spend money on health insurance.
Pensions? How about if pensions were also made illegal and the only money for retirement was SS and whatever you yourself managed to save or work until you drop dead. Just think of the cost savings there for government and business.
We don’t like what we have because we don’t like paying for what we have while at the same time we want more for less. This is the problem.
DBW asks: “As for the tea party, where were these folks over the past decade when tax cuts and unfunded wars were happening? Being a financial grownup also means paying the bills.”
I’m not sure where the TEA partiers were either. Maybe it took time for them to wake up, but it’s hard to believe it took 8 years. Remember the two wars being fought on borrowed money? Remember the unpaid for Medicare drug plan? Remember the tax cuts that were so expensive they had to write an expiration date into the law (also, to allow them to be passed by reconciliation)? All this took place in G.W. Bush’s first term and nary a peep from the deficit hawks. Afterall, didn’t Dick Cheney say that Reagan proved deficits didn’t matter? After all this deficit spending Bush was re-elected and still no sign of the TEA party.
Remember the first election where Gore won the majority vote? Seems like a majority of people, not so stupid, already knew that G.W. Bush wasn’t right for the country.
I’ll predict one thing about the TEA party. If Republicans gain control of the government, the TEA party anger and concern will quickly fade away. Tax cuts that further balloon the deficit will be made and only token, insignificant cuts will be made to the budget.
I read an article in today’s paper that was disturbing. It said that today a larger percentage of people get direct government money than at any time in the past, more people live in homes where one person was getting a check directly from the government than ever before (the number was moving toward 50%). This is happening at the same time that fewer people than ever before are paying taxes. If we reach a tipping point what incentive would there be for people to even want to change? Why would the majority of people getting money and not paying taxes for that money vote to stop doing that?
I don’t know if we will be able to solve this spending puzzle by democratic means, the majority may never support it.
That leaves the solution to be imposed by outside forces.
One answer may be a third party commission that has the authority given by congress to actually make the specific cuts, much like the base closing commission. This way it would be taken out of the hands of congress to some degree. The other option is simply that the international financial markets force us to change in a Greece like scenario or we devalue our currency through the printing press, both are not good solutions.
Yeah, actually it did take quite a bit of time for the impetus of the TP to form. It wasn’t just Bush that did it. It goes back to Clinton anyway, maybe earlier. Everyone sitting pretty during the tech bubble that was financed in part with easy credit. There were a few people telling us that credit cards and borrowing wasn’t a good way to do things. Meanwhile Congress was getting odder and odder and the spending/borrowing went full steam after the tech bubble burst. Things went along fine for a while but things weren’t the same. More people were borrowing, just like the gov’t. It all sort of fit together, at least for me. Then Bush came along. I don’t remember just what it was that put him in as the nominee, but I remember not being happy about it. But we voted for him anyway because the alternative was Gore and, well, lets just say that disaster was avoided thank God. Things were kind of iffy there for a few months and then 9/11. We rallied behind him and believed that he would do the right thing. The spending was getting up there but it seemed we had to spend to win. Then there were some really weird things- letting Kennedy write the education bills, no vetos of anything, spending, spending, spending. ’04 was another replay of ’00 for me, vote not so much for Bush as against the pathetic excuse on the other side. Then things went really weird…what was he doing? It just kept getting more and more like a Democrat was running things- spending and borrowing and deficits and war and falling credit ratings. I forget the exact bill that pushed me over edge, but it was something ridiculous. That was in the end it for me. He was just Democrat-lite. Then came the bail outs and lack of action in the housing crisis, there was nothing from Bush about the people that created the problem and benefited from it, not even a mention of the Dodds and Franks. He just became irrelevant. But the borrowing accelerated and the debt grew and the jobs went away.
One day on Glenn Beck a lady called in and said she and her friends were sending tea bags to their Congressmen in protest of something, I forget what it was. That was the first time I knew there were actually people doing something about it and the start of the TP movement as far as I know. It was well back into Bushs last term, long before Obama was on scene.
You think what you want, I doubt you’d listen anyway. But this started blossoming under Bush, Obamas platform just really put the steam to it. If it had been Hillary it would have been the same thing and McCain too. I know some don’t believe that, but for me it’s the truth. I don;t care who it is in office, until spending, debt and borrowing are under control and honor and common sense return I’m with the TP.
“One day on Glenn Beck a lady called in and said she and her friends were sending tea bags to their Congressmen in protest of something, I forget what it was. That was the first time I knew there were actually people doing something about it and the start of the TP movement as far as I know. It was well back into Bushs last term, long before Obama was on scene.”
Bret, look that up and verify it. I think that’s incorrect. And I don’t have time to debunk it.
JDM said, “oa:
Maybe I wasn’t clear.”
No, you weren’t. That was a really poorly written comment. Nonsensical even. Didn’t get your point across very well. I’m still not sure what it is. Peace and security are another word for slavery, I think is your point.
I looked at the dictionary and don’t agree with it.
OA, I know it was in Bushs last term. I recall specifically I was right in front of the bandstand in Gouverneur at work headed east at the light when she came on and I retired in ’08. It was well before that. But since you can apparently read my memories better than I can, you just go ahead and think what you want.