Morning Read: Adirondack ski centers in deep freeze?
The Albany Times-Union is looking at the future of the Adirondack Park’s two state-run ski centers. Rick Karlin’s article notes that $20 million in improvements have been made over the last decade.
But he suggests that the flow of cash from Albany may be at an end, at least for a while:
[O]perators and skiers at Gore and Whiteface may have to make those improvements last for a while due to what’s expected to be several years of budget deficits — starting off with at a gap of at least $9 billion for 2011-2012 — and Gov. Andrew Cuomo‘s warnings that almost every sector of state operations will face cuts.
Indeed, one of the trails on Lookout Mountain doesn’t yet have snowmaking guns. The center simply ran out of money and will now have to wait for more funds to be available.
Gore, however, was able to complete its new connector chairlift just as the state’s economy entered the deep freeze.
Read the full article here.
Tags: nys budget, outdoor recreation, sports
Pataki was right back then but now NYS is in a fiscal emergency. There are provisions in article 14 that allow for land to be leased out without constitutional changes that Bruce McCulley is describing. This land should be leased out to private firms that can develop the land in a way that would make them first class ski-in-ski-out resorts. Canada is a huge market but without lodging on the mountain they will always be hand cuffed. Look across the big lake Vermont has the right idea. With cheap flights from Boston to Saranac Lake there is no reason we can’t have many of those skiers too, but you have to have more than a mountain with the hotel 10 miles down the road. NYS should get out of the ski business.
Is there going to be enough snow (and cold enough temps for snow-making) every year to support them?
Paul is right. A private company would run the ski centers better and more efficiently and not be burdened by skyrocketing pension costs.
oa, maybe we should try and move the mountain down south where they seem to be getting all the snow lately!
Not living in Lake Placid, and being only 41, I’m unfamiliar with the history of why these two ski centers are, in fact, publicly owned. Can anyone provide some insight as to why they aren’t privately held? For instance, was it recognized years ago that they were not viable for profit entities and then “sold” to the state? Or have they always been public property? Just curious and looking for some background on the situation.
I am not positive, but NYS owned that land well before there was a ski area there. It took a change to the constitution to cut the runs. Maybe it has to do with the 1932 Olympics? I am clueless about Gore’s history.
oa, also on snow. If you look here this year Whiteface opened the earliest it ever has in its history:
http://www.skinet.com/ski/cloudsplitter-gondola/1999/12/whiteface-mt-to-open-this-weekend-earliest-skiing-and-riding-in-its-hi
Adirondacks weather has always been finicky, just look at all the old SL Winter Carnival pictures you never know when you are going to have snow. This weather is nothing new. But the weather is always consistently cold enough to make plenty of snow. Certainly colder than many places that have a thriving ski industry.
There’s 3 centers, Gore, Whiteface and Bellaire (sp?). I don’t recall why the State decided to get into the ski biz and compete directly with private enterprise, but I know they put at least 5 ski areas in the North Creek area pretty much out of business (Little Gore, Harvey Mountain, Oak Mtn, Dynamite Hill and IIRC Garnet Hill) and did quite a number on West Mountain too. My memory is foggy after 40 years but there may have been a few I missed. I seem to recall a hill in Schroon Lake and Indian Lake too. I’m fairly sure there was or is a hill in Saranac Lake and of course Big Tupper didn’t benefit from the competition.
The drive started in the 50’s according to first hand information from a Forest Ranger I knew who was tasked with making weekly snow measurements for several winters around Gore. I think Gore opened in the mid 60’s, not sure about Whiteface. It was around the same time The Northway was built. I’m not sure if the 2 projects were at all connected.
“A private company would run the ski centers better and more efficiently and not be burdened by skyrocketing pension costs.”
Exactly. The private sector is always better at everything, and never use public money. I nominate this private ski-resort company:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/how-did-intrawest-rack-up-so-much-debt/article1439047/
many mom and pop motels survive on the skiers. Ski in ski out resort with resteraunts, shops etc. will kill all the small buisnesses. how about some shuttles from the hotels in town
There are shuttles that run between Lake Placid and Whiteface Mt (I don’t know about North Creek and Gore)
There is still a small hill in Indian Lake that operates and Mt Pisgah (Saranac Lake) and Oak Mountain (Speculator) still operate as ski areas. Big Tupper’s demise back in the late 1990s was due to mismanagement more than anything – it had a tremendous draw of Canadians (southeastern Ontario…Ottawa – Big Tupper is close enough for a day trip but Whiteface is too far for Ottawans) The correct spelling is Belleayre Mountain.
I am a life long skier (been skiing almost 55 years and a full certified ski instructor – 1977) and my observation is that the overdevelopment of ski areas has ruined skiing (read the book “The Downhill Slide” by Hal Clifford, published in 2002) I enjoy Whiteface because it does NOT have all that superflous on-hill stuff. Skiing magazine did a feature on Whiteface and the Lake Placid area in the mid 90s and raved about how skiing Whiteface is what skiing was like before it got all glitzed up. Skiing and ski areas today is just the amenity used to sell real estate. Plop down some on-slope housing and that will hurt the businesses in Wilmington, Lake Placid, Keene and Saranac Lake. And, as far as competing with Vermont ski areas, Lake Placid/Whiteface consistently comes up (by ski magazines) as one of the best ski area and town combinations in the east because of it’s off-slope amenities.
Some homework needs to be done by some here before expressing too strong an opinion of state operated Whiteface and Gore (and no, I am not an ORDA employee)
I get that the state-operated ski areas are going to have to get by for awhile without any major upgrades and, as a skier and a New Yorker, I am willing to accept that while NYS works through it’s budget crisis.
Can anyone substantiate the rumor that a limited access highway planned as part of the Eisenhower Interstate system to link the Northway with Rt 4 interstate in VT was never completed in order to make travel to NY ski areas easier than driving to VT areas?
Those are great points.
I don’t know if the future of whiteface would or should be state ownership, however the uniqueness of not having a bunch of over-development right on the slopes and having a ski mountain in the middle of a protected area should be a very positive thing for the mountain.
Yes, Mervel, but it violates free-market ideologues’ religion, and so we really shouldn’t approve of it.
haah, yes but I am free market advocate which is why we need to support business in Lake Placid and keep the mountains pure!
It is actually a nod to the market to allow any ski slopes at all anywhere in the Park. How many operating resort style ski slopes exist inside Yellowstone or Denali?
Like Intrawest maybe we will see these NYS holdings auctioned off?
BTW I think that they refinanced that debt and avoided the auction. That link was from last winter.
Also, there are lots of great ski areas that are small and privately owned. NYS is not why Whiteface is a good area. Too many people here think that NYS ownership is the answers to all their problems. It IS the problem in many cases. Let’s see what happens, I hope I am wrong. 9 billion dollars has to come from somewhere and it has to come by April 1.
MarkSL, it wasn’t Oak Mtn I was thinking of then. There was a hill in Chestertown (Dynamite?) and one in Warrensburg that I thought was called Oak. Can’t recall the name now.
Growing up in a ski town (North Creek) I saw the changes first hand. My family’s bread and butter was skiers. It changed over the years. My friends and relatives worked at Gore and benefited. But those of us who didn’t have the proper political affiliation didn’t get the jobs at Gore.
Growing up we never gave the States direct competition with private enterprise a thought. Today it seems so obviously wrong that it sickens me. No way to change it now unless the State simply closes it down.
North Creek? I’ve recently read a good article in Adirondack Life magazine about the resurgence of the the village of North Creek. Its successful small businesses, etc…..Interesting as it relates greatly, but not entirely, to the expansion of Gore Mountain. A good read about a small community leveraging its state owned and operated facility into year round economic expansion. Perhaps this is the model other communities can utilize. Sort of a state/private joint venture, if you will….
Why not a private/private joint venture? Things have got to change.
Yeah Clap, I read it too. It’s only a resurgence if you are unaware of what used to be there. The Crick was lots bigger and busier years back. And also remember that it took nearly 30 years to get this far. There were big plans for the area in the late 70’s that took this long to get in gear.
BTW- do you think APA board member and former Johnsburg Town Supervisor Bill Thomas had anything to do with the sucessful move?
As the guy that developed West Mountain in 1961 -2007, I saw Gore destroy the market for local ski areas. Gore was conceived and sold as a destination ski area to attract the “metropolitan skiers” that were going to VT. Once built it never really attempted to market to down state, & NJ. Instead it cut prices and was marketed as an inexpensive ski area for the Albany ski market. That destroyed the market that the local ski areas were built to attract. Many small, medium and nice ski areas went bankrupt in face of Gore’s pricing / marketing strategy. Old Gore, Harvey, Silver Bells, Adirondack Mt., Petersburg Pass, Wt. Whitney, & a nice facility near Johnstown, were just a few of the failures caused by that marketing & pricing decision of NYS.
How many of you have ever seen the operating financials of ORDA? When I saw a few years of their statements, they were losing 8 to 10 million per year! That does not include capital projects funds!! Maybe it is high time the public gets to see the operating financial reports of the publicly funded Authorities they pay for. Then intelligent discussions and good policy decisions might follow.
Interesting that you bring up Bill Thomas, Bret. I remember when he retired as Supervisor the Post Star asked him what he was going to do next and he said he might go to work for Front Street Development–the group he was supposed to oversee as a public official. Fortunately that didn’t happen but it does make me wonder about his ability to be a fair arbiter on the APA board.
If Whiteface had been a private enterprise, it probably would have folded years ago like the hundreds of failed ski areas in the northeast. It is far away from major domestic population centers but simply does not have great snow. It’s snowfall is about half of Jay Peak’s and less than 2/3 of the big southern Vermont areas which of course are closer to Boston and New York. The required snow-making is expensive at 1.5 million/year not to mention the cost to the environment of the millions of gallons of displaced water. There is a reason it is still called “Iceface.”
The 1941 amendment to the state constitution barely passed and in no way was a mandate to funnel millions upon millions of taxpayers money into a questionable endeavor. Red flags should have been raised as far back as the mid 1950’s when the geniuses decided to build Whiteface 2.0 and abandon the original ski area on Marble Mountain (Lake Placid Olympic ambitions noted). Whiteface 1.0 was not cheap and was left to rot after a decade of use. The lifts were idle and decaying years after after the final 1957 ski season. The Cloudspitter trail connecting Lookout (then part of the upper Marble slopes only accessible via snowcat) with the then new Whiteface in 1957 was a utter waste of money. It was never used until re-cleared in conjunction with the installation of the new Lookout chairlift.
But Whiteface has all that vertical drop! Thats nice, but it isn’t Jackson Hole or Whistler. And Killington has nearly as much and way better snow.
I consider it good news that Whiteface funding will be re-evaluated. In these days of belt tightening, it seems obvious that dumping more taxpayer’s dollars into Whiteface is a bad idea.
One last point. Quebecers are not likely to flock to Whiteface, currency on par or not. There are nice, really nice ski centers in the Laurentians.
Knuck, Bill is a great guy and I will always have a fond spot in my heart for him and his family. I’m not saying he did anything wrong, just that his position helps. Is that fair or right? Would another project have gotten the same consideration in Long Lake, Colton or Morehouse? I don’t know, but isn’t this an example of why there needs to be more local input in APA? Johnsburg has an advocate, shouldn’t the other towns too?
Clap- Just to give a little insight on North Crick and it’s “boom”. When I was growing up there were 4 gas stations/garages, a new car dealership, a heavy truck dealership, a bowling alley, 4 grocerys, a dry goods store, a Montgomery Wards, at least 5 restaurants/diners/bars, an auto parts, a printers shop, a newspaper, a hardware, a lumberyard, liquor store, variety store, jewler, 3 barbershops, a movie theater, gas company/appliance store, bank, several churches, a small engine dealership, 2 ski areas, a sporting goods store, drugstore, electrical repair shop/appliance store, a tailor, 2 hotels and a 3 motels, at least 1 boarding house, a dentist, a doctor, 2 sawmills….probably other stuff I’ve forgotten. And that’s within NC itself. Add in North River, Wevertown, Johnsburg, Sodom, Bakers Mills, Garnet Lake, Riverside- there was lots more.
“Boom”? Depends on your perspective.
Stephen, your memory is absolute accurate, your analysis is correct. Top down government with no transparency sure has a bad effect on us taxpayers!
Bret, I remember skiing old Gore in 62-63 and North Creek was a vibrant town. Looks to me like The State take over of skiing there surely didn’t do much for the local people.
Mike, I believe we met many, many years ago. Nice to see you’re still kicking!