Afternoon Read: won’t somebody please think of the cowboys?
Photo: anyjazz65CC some rights reserved
The recent discussion about gun control and New York State’s new gun laws, which I won’t go into here, has been rife with rhetoric and, on both sides, often short of understanding.
I’m a fairly recent transplant to the North Country, and coming to a rural area from a lifetime spent mostly in big cities with historically high rates of gun crime, and a generalized fear of firearms, has been an education.
Like many aspects of life in the North Country, I’ve come to accept that on the gun issue, as with many aspects of life in rural northern New York, I’m unlikely to completely understand the perspective of someone who’s spent their life up here. I think I do the most service to myself and others when I listen with an open mind and just try to absorb as much as possible.
This in mind, I came across an article in the Watertown Daily Times today that I found extremely gratifying, for several reasons. The article, “Sackets Harbor Vigilantes club feels ostracized by gun control laws“, tells the story of a local Wild West club that gets together periodically to hold “shootout” competitions where they fire classic American firearms. Since those antique guns hold 10-round magazines, the 30 members of the club were concerned that the new gun laws, which allow no more than seven bullets to be loaded into a gun at one time, would make their weapons illegal.
The “shootouts” are family affairs – club co-founder Robert T. Wood describes them in the article as “the type of competition that brings together fathers and sons, mothers and daughters.” But the club considered canceling two “shootouts” planned for this summer.
It’s now come to light, thanks to some digging by the Times, that the guns are apparently exempt from the law, because they’re antiques manufactured “at least 50 years prior to the current date.” So although the Vigilantes are looking for more clarification on the new law before they hold their events, they seem to be in the clear. (If you have questions about the new law, the state has provided a Frequently Asked Questions page.)
Here’s why I love this story: First, although it’s unnervingly named, the Vigilantes club seems quite lovely, and the article features one member outfitted in cowboy gear, which really underlines the notion that these guys are really just shooting for entertainment, something many urbanites do have a difficult time getting their (our) heads around.
Second, the fact that this question seems to have been resolved by looking for ways around a problem rather than by simply pushing against it with, again, heavy rhetoric and a distinct lack of listening, is, frankly, inspiring. It’s a small thing to look something up, but it’s surprisingly infrequent, in political discourse, that anyone ever does.
Brian: I’ve grew up here and spent virtually my whole life here. While I get most of the gun culture, even if I don’t partake in it, there are still aspects about it that I simply don’t get.
An acquaintance of mine last week brought up the issue last week (surprisingly since we’d never talked politics before) following the passing of the state legislation. He’s an evangelical Christian and very socially conservative (at least based on his Facebook page). Fair enough.
He was so angry about the law that he was speculating on the possibility of moving to Canada or to Vermont… not mere ranting since he lives a stone’s throw away from the latter.
To him, the key issue seemed to be the mere (to my eyes) fact of having to register his gun(s). Because when he asked if guns had to be registered in Canada and I said I think they did, he said the heck with that.
He seems like a nice reasonable person. Not a bloodthirsty fanatic. Not a lunatic. A nice, religious, pleasant, even boring family man. But the gun issue was so important to him, it seemed to trump his other views… to the point that as an evangelical social conservative, he’d considered moving to a far more secular country than ours and to a state where gay marriage was legal (and probably the most liberal state in the nation overall).
*This* is what I don’t get. Evangelicalism seemed to be at the core of himself and his family’s everything, yet when guns were threatened, it seemed to trump even something that strong.
“yet when guns were threatened…”
I suppose I should’ve said, “yet when guns were perceived to be threatened…”
Vermont has a stronger gun lobby than NY though. So we don’t always fit into these nice neat boxes. Vermont is certainly liberal in many ways, it has a higher percentage of hunters than in NYS.
To me this whole thing comes down to hunting. The hardcore nuts who like the assault weapons who own a billion guns or want the most extreme, etc, are a small minority of gun owners in the US. The average gun owning family in the US is a hunting family who follows hunter safety rules who see guns as recreational tools and a part of our heritage. Its the reason that states with very high rates of gun ownership don’t have high crime rates, not because of self defense etc, but because rural hunting areas don’t have a lot of crime compared to urban areas infested with crime and drugs.
It is too bad that NYS’s gun control laws are mainly anti-hunter laws.
Hunting is a rich US tradition that connects us with the outdoors that actually funds and protects most of the animals that are hunted. Ducks unlimited is one of the most successful conservation groups in the US for example. The key to me is that we get state government to not be close minded when it comes to NYS’s rural hunting heritage.
Vermont, widely (and correctly, I think) perceived as being amongst the most liberal states in the country, views gun rights very seriously. They place very few restrictions on rifle, shotgun or handgun ownership, including the right to carry a handgun, openly or concealed. The rich tradition there is obviously one of personal freedom. Gun owners aren’t all crazy Republican conservatives.
Larry – the statistic are that gun owners are either rural or conservative republicans.
Rural can be either liberal or conservative.
Jesus! Learn a new tune.
Doesn’t anybody ever read the by-line on this blog?
I did.
Temper temper
When I was a boy my neighbor and I would go out back of his house, find a tree and set up a target. We usually had to use his single shot 22, but occasionally got to take his Dads semi automatic 22 – the one you didn’t have to reload after each shot. It was a lot more fun, and if we could only put in 7 shells, it would have been a disappointment. We probably would have filled it up anyway – who would know. Hunting quail you only got one shot so it didn’t matter.
“The key to me is that we get state government to not be close minded when it comes to NYS’s rural hunting heritage.”
Mervel, I think I agree. But gun regulations really have nothing to do with a “hunting heritage” at least I don’t think it is mentioned in the second amendment. So as much as you and I want to preserve something related to hunting, that is not even mentioned or considered by the constitution.
Brian (MOFYC). Nora’s name isn’t Brian?
“the guns are apparently exempt from the law, because they’re antiques manufactured “at least 50 years prior to the current date.”
Why should such a gun need an “exemption”? These new laws are not after these kinds of guns and shooters yet they apply???
“We probably would have filled it up anyway – who would know.” Peter what is your point?
My point is that these laws are not designed or necessary for rural America, which unfortunately is only a small part of the country(by population). Most of our population now live in urban environments where guns play a very different role.
I think there is a good poem in the line below. Maybe I’ll try to use it somehow for this years poetry month.
“Jesus! Learn a new tune.”
Nora, there’s a giant hole in the whole story, both yours and the WDT’s- manufacturing date. The story refers to the NYS FAQs which specifically state manufacturing date as a criteria. If it’s 50 years old then it’s supposed to be exempt. The Colt 1911 has been around since 1911 and is still made today. The Ruger 10-22 was introduced in 1960 and is still made today. The AR15 was designed in the late 1950’s and first went into service in 1962 and is still made today, that’s the dreaded Bushmaster. So, following the logic of the article any gun that was manufactured 50 or more years ago should be exempt…or not. A 1911 pistol produced yesterday that holds more than 7 rounds is not exempt. A 10-22 with it’s 10 round mag is not exempt. An AR is not exempt. Yet, the story says they should be. It can’t be both ways, either the State goofed up and meant manufacturing DATE or the Times story and your belief are entirely wrong and the exemptions don’t exist. Based on what I read, I think it’s the later rather than the former. It’s possible the date of production could be key, but I kind of doubt that at this point. I think the Times is mistaken. A 10-22, 1911 or AR, not to mention a lot of other guns, might be 50 years old but they are still on the list. Maybe this is just more proof of how very poorly this bill was written in Cuomos haste to score points.
I have to applaud you for at least trying to understand the rural/gun owner mindset. That’s a whole lot more than most people do. So a great big thumbs up to you! You might want to go out to one of those fun shoots and enjoy yourself for a while. You may even find yourself “getting it” even more by participating and discovering a gun doesn’t instantly turn you into a bloodthirsty killer looking for the nearest school yard.
Sounds like there is a problem in urban areas and it has little to do with guns. Otherwise the rural areas which probably have more guns per capita would have more problems. Identify what the problem those urban areas have and then maybe we would be onto something that could solve the problem. Then we would not have to pass laws that are “unnecessary” for many people, or some would not have to break the law as you suggest. 20+% of the US population is smaller that the other 80% but it is my no means “small”. As I have said numerous times here I am for some common sense gun regulations but when you see something like this it looks like we are getting it wrong in some respects.
Larry, I’m extremely disappointed that you chose to resort to foul language here. There’s no need to sink to that level of discourse. Leave that to the other side.
RC, your comment was pretty reasonable until you added this:
“You may even find yourself “getting it” even more by participating and discovering a gun doesn’t instantly turn you into a bloodthirsty killer looking for the nearest school yard.”
Larry makes an interesting point. Vermont which is one of the few remaining places that are more rural than urban must have the answer to this problem. Doesn’t look like it’s gun control?
Vermont still has town meetings and there is no “other side” it is all people together. Things are very different if you have to sit next to your neighbors while you spout your point of view.
Paul – Not to sully Nora’s sweet story, but there is a problem in urban areas – basically gang violence. Its hard to stop and they are now trying RICO laws with some success. They shoot at each other, which they would do less of if guns werent so readily available and easy to carry around.
I keep bringing this up because I think most of us here do understand the value of the gun culture in rural America (Rancid pay attention). I am suggesting that you (plural) try to understand the position of people living in urban environments.
Speaking of cowboys and fancy shooters, let’s take a moment to remember legendary ADK cowboy Hub Hubbell who died nearly a year ago.
Hub ended his life the cowboy way, on his own terms watching a sunset at his ranch in Florida. One gun death I approve of.
http://poststar.com/news/local/longtime-voice-of-local-rodeos-hub-hubbell-remembered/article_03462808-670a-11e1-8435-001871e3ce6c.html
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20120303/ARTICLE/120309855
http://www.northcountrygazette.org/2012/03/04/hubbell_passes/
Okay, this is a long video (about 7 minutes) but well worth the time spent to see the legend in action — at 90!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4KJf-MEMsU&list=PLF74B65DC8679189F&index=1
Peter, I understand the points that you are trying to make and they are totally valid.
” I am suggesting that you (plural) try to understand the position of people living in urban environments.”
I do. Like I said I have many family members who live in Baltimore (all within the city limits). What I don’t understand is how these new gun regulations in NYS are going to change what is going on in NYC or the like? Some of the other things you describe (using RICO statutes etc) may be effective.
Like I have said some of these gun restrictions related to clip size and gun type may have an impact (although doubtful in my opinion) on the type of thing we saw in Newtown.
But you are still going to have to explain to me how they are going to have any impact of the kind of violence that we see in Baltimore and NYC. I am ready to understand.
If you could eliminate ALL guns, hand and long guns (legal and illegal), you could control that type of urban violence with gun control laws. Is that what you are suggesting? It doesn’t sound like you are suggesting that at all. So how will these other restrictions help.
Anyone who wants to understand how ineffective the new gun law will be only needs to look at New York City, which has had the most restrictive gun laws in the country for many years. Illegal weapons of all kinds continue to be readily available and criminals do not lack for firepower.
Peter Hahn, I clicked negative to your above comment about semi-automatic because the .22 owned by your friends dad was not a semi-automatic.
A semi-automatic has nothing to do with the number of bullets in the magazine. A semi-automatic is more properly called self-loading. It automatically puts another cartridge in the chamber. Bolt action and lever action rifles require the shooter to manually eject the spent cartridge and manually put a new cartridge in the chamber. If you are good and practiced at it, you can be quick about it but you can’t simply keep pulling the trigger as you can with a semi-automatic. An automatic is one where you just hold the trigger for the gun to continue to fire until the magazine is empty.
Mervel, your comment about “rural hunting areas don’t have a lot of crime compared to urban areas infested with crime and drugs” is more of a fantasy than reality. If you look at the facts, we have more than our fair share of illegal drug use up here and the same goes for crime – even murder.
The real difference between up here and down there is population. With so few people up here, it just takes longer for a murder to take place up here.
“The real difference between up here and down there is population. With so few people up here, it just takes longer for a murder to take place up here.”
Sure but there are some US cities that are pretty crowded and pretty safe. There are also some parts of many “unsafe” cities where crime is about as common as it is in your neck of the woods. Poverty is a large part of the problem. There are not fewer gun crimes in Roland Park verses West Baltimore because of access to guns.
Pete – ok – it was 50 years ago. I (frankly) dont remember how we got the next bullet in the chamber – but we didnt have to reload his dad’s gun. It remains a fond memory and one of my favorite most enjoyed activities at that time. My mother, on the other hand, thought differently.
Pete, I think Peter knows the difference between a semi-auto and a pump, bolt, lever or other type of action. I think you misinterpreted what he said.
Paul, how was my last comment unreasonable? Are you somehow claiming that having a gun in your hands does turn you into a blood thirsty killer? I saw nothing at all unreasonable in it.
Knuckle, I knew Hub back in the 70’s and his trick horse”Okie” IIRC. Wasn’t aware he’d passed. A very nice man.
Peter, I do understand what you’re saying in your 9:21 post. But the new laws aren’t going to affect the gangs or any other criminals!!! That’s the point we keep trying to get trough to you. They don’t carry legal guns, buy guns legally, use them legally, etc. What you are after is crime control more than gun control.
Not to belabor the point, but there would most likely be fewer gun crimes in west Baltimore if guns were harder to come by in west Baltimore. You guys are questioning whether or not this law will actually help in that regard. That is a reasonable question and I dont know the answer. I think the idea is to make the guns and ammo easier to trace so they can plug the holes in the illegal distribution system.
Peter, how do you trace a gun thats never been in the system to start with or is stolen or smuggled in from someplace off shore? You said it yourself- “the illegal distribution system.” Honestly, what you propose is something like thinking you can track illegal drug use by mandating serial numbers on Advil and Tylenol or requiring background checks on people picking up their prescription meds at Kinneys. Criminals are simply not going to obey these laws!
There would likely be far fewer gun crimes in Baltimore if we had a vibrant economy, a criminal justice system that handed out harsh punishment quickly for violent crimes, a culture that valued traditional work and personal ethics, far less drugs and other detrimental issues.
Rancid you may be right. It is questionable whether we have been able to restrict the illegal drug distribution system either. Arguably we should legalize all recreational drugs. That would at least control the gun problem.
Larry, I am not sure NYC works, it is a pretty safe city compared to other cities, in fact I think it has one of the lowest urban crime rates in the US.
Mervel,
NYC is very safe, relatively speaking, but in the NYC criminal world any kind of firearm is readily available. Handguns are as common as dirt, including those described as high-capacity, assault style weapons.
Peter, if you gave me the choice between legalizing the drugs and taking away my 2nd Amend rights, I’ll legalize the drugs. But will either move stop gun violence?
“Paul, how was my last comment unreasonable? Are you somehow claiming that having a gun in your hands does turn you into a blood thirsty killer? I saw nothing at all unreasonable in it.”
RC I think it is called “person” in writing if I remember way back to grammar school. Here is what you said directly to Nora:
“You may even find yourself “getting it” even more by participating and discovering a gun doesn’t instantly turn you into a bloodthirsty killer looking for the nearest school yard.”
You said “you” may find yourself. Turn “you” into… In fact you quote her specifically “getting it”. You didn’t say that “people” may find themselves or it doesn’t turn “people” into….
Think about it. I think it was a silly ending to an otherwise reasonable comment.
“Things are very different if you have to sit next to your neighbors while you spout your point of view.”
Knuck, do you think it is the internet?
Paul, I don’t know about the Internet or not, but I think there is a lot to be said for Town Meeting Day.
” Arguably we should legalize all recreational drugs. That would at least control the gun problem.”
Sounds like a drug problem we are trying to fix with gun control? But I think there are other issues. Bad guys will always come up with something else to keep them in business.
This whole discussion kind of validates what many of the critics of these latest gun regulations have been saying. That it isn’t about trying to prevent mass shootings but is about something else. The mass shooting stuff is just a springboard.
Paul is correct. I assumed that since it was a politically tinged story not having to do with Canada that it was done by Brian M. Sorry Nora!
I cant believe that nobody liked the video of Hub showing his shooting skills. Kathy, Larry, RC you like guns, you love this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4KJf-MEMsU&list=PLF74B65DC8679189F&index=1
OL, well I think that is interesting.
Hopefully we will be able to really study some some of these issues without politics? I don’t know if that is possible with guns, but I hope that it is.
For example does gun availability in the general public translate to gun availability in the criminal world? Does gun availability in the criminal world translate to more gun deaths? We know from some data that gun availability in homes does not create more gun violence in fact there is almost a negative correlation to the percentage of homes that have guns within a state and the number of gun deaths in a state. But those are all guns and high gun owning states are generally rural hunting states so there are many other things going on.
Anyway a lot of people including myself just speculate without good studies to back some of this up we really don’t know what is going on, which is why I find it disturbing that we are rushing to pass laws when we have no idea what their impact will be or why and how gun laws impact gun deaths.
We do know that hunters and the percentage of hunters within a state have nothing to do with gun deaths and gun murders in a state. So why we know want to pass laws that are aimed at hunters makes no sense, unless there are other cultural issues going on, maybe people are indeed just prejudiced against rural people who like to hunt? I think that in NYS that is probably true.
Mervel,
The issue going on is there is a significant element that wants to ban all guns and many who do not believe in hunting. These are fringe concepts to many people and they would be happy to see both eliminated. Forget about what the anti-gun crowd says; it is enough to watch what they do.
Larry – what they did was the recently passes NY gun control law. (Which was pretty mild even though it is the strongest in the country).
Paul, since I was specifically addressing Nora and directing a suggestion to her, I think my grammar is correct.
Knuckle, as I said, Hub was a great guy, I knew him, bought boots from him. I can add thumbs ups to your post if it makes you feel better.
I also have to wonder about your comment about saying your piece in front of your neighbors. We do it all the time at our Town Board meetings, County meetings too. If you believe you’re correct, why would you hesitate? We’re pretty big on calling a spade a spade around here. Tell it like we see it and if someones widdle fewwings get hurt, then hash it out later. If people are so afraid to speak their mind then they should just shut up altogether and learn to say “Baaaa.” because they’re nothing but sheep. I really don’t understand why you’d think Vt is different than here.
RC, Hub made me a belt with my name on it. Wish I still had it.
And “Knuckleheadedliberal” was harder to squeeze onto a belt when I was younger and skinnier.