Afternoon read: guns, guns, guns, guns, guns
Detail, front page of the New York State Rifle and Pistol Association’s claim.
I was really hoping not to post about this today, but am behooved.
The horrible school shooting in Newtown, Conn., last December, provoked a nationwide discussion about guns and gun control that many had thought unlikely given the high levels of polarization that surround the issue. In New York state, that discussion quickly resulted in the passage of a new gun law, the NY SAFE Act, that is one of the nation’s toughest.
But of course we know all this — guns, gun control and the constitutional and other issues they call to mind have been all over the news for weeks now. Brian Mann filed an excellent story this very morning about how gun owners and dealers in our area are dealing with the new law (or refusing to engage with it). And that’s far from the only coverage NCPR has done on the issue. Tomorrow, David Sommerstein will file a story on a Potsdam man who bought an AK-47 from a local classified ad to make a statement about assault rifles.
The ongoing guns/gun control story isn’t one I relish — the gun control dialog is frequently one of America’s least functional (it’s right up there with abortion and the national debt), and every new story reminds me of the Newtown shooting and others. But on we must go, because it’s incredibly important.
This in mind, I draw your attention to two stories in the news. First, Your News Now reports that the New York State Rifle and Pistol Association has filed the first legal challenge against the new law, claiming (PDF) it violates the US Constitution’s commerce clause, among other things (this happened yesterday). It also describes the legislation as “impermissibly vague and overboard.” This isn’t a lawsuit, yet, but it may well become one. We’ll see what happens with that.
Also, the Albany Times-Union reports that Gov. Cuomo’s approval rating has dropped 15 points since the new law. It’s still quite high, though — it was at 74 percent, now it’s at 59 percent. That’s according to a new poll from Quinnipiac University.
“This is proof positive that anti-gun laws do nothing to make us safer or keep guns out of the hands of those who commit crimes.”
No, this is proof positive that anti-gun laws in one city or state do little to make us safer or keep guns out of the hands of those who commit crimes as long as there are other jurisdictions where regulations are more lax.
And then there is this news:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2013/02/ap-man-charged-in-former-seal-kyle-killing-020313/
knuckleheadedliberal says:
February 3, 2013 at 11:55 am
Crabtree, the official is a jerk because for one he is putting his organization in a bad light just as you are putting yourself in a bad light when, in fact, you dont know how good a skeet shooter the president is; and because, as anyone with a small understanding of physics can tell you, 1) a gun has recoil, 2) the photograph was obviously taken with a fast shutter speed in order to capture the ejection of smoke. Therefore we can conclude that in the instant of firing Obama’s posture was affected in a way described by Newton’s 3rd Law and captured in a transitional position which may not be detectable by the human eye or processed by the human brain at real life speed.
In other words, neither you nor the NSSA official knows what you’re talking about”
Sorry Knuckle, look at any pictures of people shooting skeet. At the moment of recoil the shoulder moves back, not the whole of the upper torso. There are statements from people who watched him shoot the one time any one actually saw him shoot a round of skeet and they said he was obviously uncomfortable, just as he is in the picture. The guy is not a shooter, he’s a politician saying he’s a shooter, just like John Kerry and his pathetic “Can I buy me a huntin’ license here?” photo op some years back.
Why doesn’t Obama just say “I’ve tried skeet, it’s not my thing.”? No one HAS to like guns you know. It’s pathetic.
And then there’s this in the news- http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/02/armed-70-year-old-womens-basketball-coach-shoots-attackers-while-walking-two-players-to-their-cars/
And here’s a big list of potential mass shootings stopped by armed citizens
“There are several documented cases where armed citizens have stopped mass attacks by gunmen. Let me list a few: The Pearl, Mississippi school shooting was stopped by the vice principal Joel Myrick with a Colt .45, The Appalachian School shooting was stopped by two students with handguns. Both of the above incidents were stopped by the armed citizens threatening the shooter without firing.
Pearl High School Link
Appalacian Law School Link
Plans to slay everyone in the Muskegon, Michigan, store and steal enough cash and jewelry to feed their “gnawing hunger for crack cocaine” fell apart for a band of would-be killers after one of their victims fought back.
Muskegon Shooting Link
The mass church shooting in Colorado Springs was stopped by the shooter being shot by a church member with a CCW permit.
New Life Church Link
The Santa Clara gunshop shooting in 1999 was stopped by an armed citizen after the shooter declared that he was going to kill everyone. Police found a list of intended victims in his car. Only the perpetrator, Richard Gable Stevens was shot.
Santa Clara Gunshop Link
The December, 1991, Aniston, Alabama defense where a CCW holder stopped armed robbers who were herding employees, customers, and his wife into a cooler. He shot both robbers, killing one.
Aniston Shoney’s Shooting Link
July 13, 2009, in Virginia at the Golden Food Market: The gunman tried to shoot several people, was stopped by a CCW carrier.
Golden Food Market Shooting Link
Just recently, in Early Texas, armed citizen Vic Stacy shot and stopped a deranged man who had just murdered two neighbors and was firing at police with a rifle. Stacy made a very long shot with his revolver, three times as far as the perpetrator was from the police officer, who had an AR-15 type rifle.
Early Texas Peach House Shooting Link
That sounds like a very good story… but it never made the national news.
I wonder who made the decision to spike that story.
Of course, when a mass shooting is stopped by an armed citizen, there are not as many victims. This leads to the charge that it would not really have been a “mass shooting”.
I don’t think anyone seriously credits the idea of Obama as an experienced skeet shooter. He wants to advance an anti-gun agenda without antagonizing the millions of Americans who oppose such a move. Unfortunately for him, he doesn’t understand that most Americans won’t be taken in by his nonsense and will be more offended by his disrespect for their intelligence. I can more easily accept someone who disagrees with me than someone who thinks I won’t figure out what they’re up to.
to play devil’s advocate, the reason you don’t hear about citizens prevailing in these circumstances is to prevent vigilantism. remember, the government feels that we’re amatuers and this work should be left to the professionals.
it’s clear there are examples to show both sides.
i think the chance of armed resistance took the attacker(s) by suprise….so
if we could all expect that everyone might be armed, would there be a reduction or increase in armed asault.
what about britain? is the opposite really true–? that police don’t carry guns, so generally the guy breaking into the local drug store doesnt carry one either? or is that a load of rubbish?
I guess there is a level of experience that allows you into the shooting club.
Rancid and Larry and the others who complain about Obama’s shooting style are superior. Good for you guys!
That Obama, he doesn’t have Redneck cred.
By the way Rancid, I had Googled images of skeet shooters and Obama’s posture looks just fine for someone who is obviously not a competition shooter. Not the best, not the worst and better than many.
Let go of your hate.
And that John Kerry guy, what a FAKE! What does he know about shooting fully automatic weapons?
Hey, look at this pic of Eisenhower shooting a gun:
http://media.thestate.com/smedia/2013/02/02/13/19/105-s2HBh.St.55.jpeg
What an IDIOT! That guy doesn’t know the first thing about how to shoot!
Hey, follow this link and you can scroll down and see that Kennedy and Eisenhower were faking their “expertise” at skeet shooting too!
http://www.usaprepares.com/guns/obama-gets-his-gun
Look at the clothes these people were wearing, Kennedy in a polo shirt and loafers and Ike was wearing patent leather shoes. You can see a photo of W improperly handling a rifle too. What fake!
I can’t wait to hear the ridicule Rancid and Larry have for all of those buffoons.
Eisenhower is playing guitar hero, the monitor being just out of camera view.
two cents,
I think with more civilians walking around armed you would get an arms race mentality. In general I am against carrying concealed or unconcealed weapons around in public, unless you are on the way hunting or going to the shooting range etc.
Because look at what happens in these very violent neighborhoods. The research shows you get these young men, boys really who feel scared, they are all scared so they get a gun because they know the odds of someone coming for them particularly if they are in a gang is high. So you see more and more disputes solved with a gun not less. The handguns are not making things safer they are making life cheaper for these guys.
I think that would be the case if more and more people started carrying handguns for protection.
The studies in New Orleans are really interesting. The ones I have seen show it is not really gang related, it is just guys getting into fights who solve those fights with a gun, more people have guns so when you are pissed at someone instead of flipping them off or punching them, they shoot them.
Part of it is guns part of it is our macho culture. Today being super bowl Sunday we can all watch big men hurt each other. I have no doubt in my mind that if Gladiators were allowed today we could easily fill a stadium of people willing to watch men fighting each other to the death.
hell, it’s after the game the real senseless violence starts!
And from Florida, the Stand Your Ground state: Man shot at Florida pizza restaurant for complaining about service.
RC, that’s great list of gun-totin’ good guys all right. One little problem is that your list goes back 22 years to 1991. That works out to not quite one event every five months. Any idea how many murders, suicides, accidental shootings, etc. happen every five months? That would be somewhere north of 13,000. Accidental deaths every five months come to roughly 290. So pardon me if I’m not terribly impressed by your list of nine good-guy-stops-bad-guy stories in 22 years.
Meanwhile, ‘American Sniper’ Author Shot to Death in Texas. Live by the gun, die by the gun, eh?
I love the comments on RC’s link above. Stuff like
Classy stuff, eh? I’m so glad these guys are out there carryin’! Makes me feel so secure. You could count on them to use good judgement in any and all situations.
Then there’s the “road rage” plus guns incidents, like this one. Yessir, more guns should make us all safer! Right!
Yes, you get some lovely stories if you google “driver points gun”. I especially like this one. Yup, the more guns there are out there, the better. After all, if these guys pulling guns on other drivers in road rage situations were to find that the guy they’re drawing on is also carrying, that’ll teach ’em a lesson in manners. Them, and anyone else who’s in the wrong place at the wrong time.
More guns = greater safety for all!
This string of comments shows how this debate on a national scale will be messy and useless. The WH should not have put out anything on a skeet shoot. Maybe the clays were being thrown over a hill where you shoot out straight for safety. Who cares? Even my wife, a devout anti gun person, wanted to know why he was shooting out straight instead of up. It doesn’t matter if he likes to shoot skeet or not. I saw one comment at the Times from some self-proclaimed gun expert. It said something like “what is up with the smoke coming out the side of the gun, a choke maybe”. Obvioslly a guy who has never heard of a ported barrel.
Walker what do you think? It sounds like some kind of a gun ban is where you are leaning, given all your anti gun comments? What do you think?
Mervel and others, about 65 percent of the gun related deaths in the us in 2010 were suicide. Mental health issues are clearly the largest cause of gun related death in the us hands down.
He had to release a photo just like he had to “release” his birth certificate. People will read into the photos whatever they want to read. Follow the link I gave that shows Kennedy and Eisenhower at the same range in the same position.
And yes, Paul, you obviously know more about skeet shooting than the people who run the skeet shooting range at Camp David, because Obama doesn’t have any access to anyone who knows anything about guns. Could it be that Obama is using the very same gun that Eisenhower used? Maybe. Or maybe it was the same gun that Prince Charles used? Who knows. You certainly don’t.
But I just love speculation! Maybe it was Lincoln’s favorite skeet shooting gun. Or Annie Oakley’s.
“It sounds like some kind of a gun ban is where you are leaning, given all your anti gun comments? What do you think?”
I think there are too many guns, and they’re making us less safe, not more safe.
I think that more Americans have died from gunfire since 1968 than died in all the wars of this nation’s history.
I think that a ban on all guns is unnecessary (and politically impossible anyway).
I think that the NRA is an irresponsible tool of the arms industry.
I think that the arms industry is being wildly successful using the increasingly sophisticated tools of modern advertizing to create a “need” for weapons that go way beyond any rational need of our citizens.
I think that way too many Americans live in a fantasy world in which they imagine themselves pitted against the forces of evil.
I think that universal background checks and a limit on magazine sizes is the most we can hope for.
Walker says:
February 3, 2013 at 7:18 pm
RC, that’s great list of gun-totin’ good guys all right. One little problem is that your list goes back 22 years to 1991. That works out to not quite one event every five months. Any idea how many murders, suicides, accidental shootings, etc. happen every five months? That would be somewhere north of 13,000. Accidental deaths every five months come to roughly 290. So pardon me if I’m not terribly impressed by your list of nine good-guy-stops-bad-guy stories in 22 years.”
Walker, if you want I can post the hundreds of reported self defense incidents from “The Armed Citizen” or several other sources. I’ve done this before and people complain about that too. I guess there just no way to win with the “open minded liberals”.
Mervel, the problem is not with legally armed citizens. The problem is with illegally armed gang bangers, nut jobs and criminals.
Walker, you want to trade away a right in the belief that the crazy and the criminals will obey a law. Does that really make any sense to you?
Knuckle, I never said Obama was an idiot as far as his shooting stance. You claimed his stance was trashed as being incorrect and came up with the theory that the entire upper body moves back on recoil. It doesn’t, that is fact, you don’t know what you’re talking about and now you’re trying to defend the indefensible when there’s no need. Obama is not a shooter, he lied to try to try and score political points. No big deal from a politician. Why try and defend something like this?
“I think that more Americans have died from gunfire since 1968 than died in all the wars of this nation’s history.”
this seems unbelievable.
Know when you’re beat. Don’t make it about photo analysis or skeet shooting technique. The photo is a clumsy attempt at propaganda and proves nothing. Obama has made himself look foolish trying to con people into believing he is something he’s not.
“Walker, if you want I can post the hundreds of reported self defense incidents from “The Armed Citizen” or several other sources.”
RC, I’m not looking for hundreds, I’m looking for tens of thousands. I’ve seen those accounts you’re talking about– I’m still not impressed.
“The problem is with illegally armed gang bangers, nut jobs and criminals.”
Only if you discount the suicides and the accidental shootings, which still way outnumber the good-guy-stops-bad-guy numbers.
“Walker, you want to trade away a right in the belief that the crazy and the criminals will obey a law.”
One more time, Rancid, I don’t want to trade away anything. I want background checks and magazine limits.
You’re just dying to make it about confiscation. It’s not.
“‘I think that more Americans have died from gunfire since 1968 than died in all the wars of this nation’s history.’
this seems unbelievable.”
Yes, it certainly does seem unbelievable. But it checks out: Politifact rates it True:
They show 1,171,177 deaths in all of America’s wars, from the Revolutionary War to the Iraq War. That’s against 1,384,171 domestic gun deaths.
“Mervel and others, about 65 percent of the gun related deaths in the us in 2010 were suicide. Mental health issues are clearly the largest cause of gun related death in the us hands down.”
Well, yeah. You gotta be crazy to want to shoot a human being, yourself or someone else.
But when people don’t have a gun to use, their suicide attempts often fail, and then they get help, and then they go on to live a useful life. (Sometimes)
Incidentally, Paul, what is the conservative approach to treating all those mental health issues? Isn’t that going to result in big increases in government spending? And locking people up on the fear that they may be a threat to themselves or others seems sure to violate personal freedoms big time.
Locking up all the crazies could be a great solution to the emptying jails as we start to decriminalize some drugs– we can convert the jails to nut houses, and retrain the prison guards as therapists!
“And yes, Paul, you obviously know more about skeet shooting than the people who run the skeet shooting range at Camp David, because Obama doesn’t have any access to anyone who knows anything about guns.”
Knuck, read the comment. I was dissing the nit wit at the NYTs that commented on something he clearly knew nothing about and was pretending he was some kind of expert. I am certainly no expert, but I do know why smoke was coming out of the side of the barrel. Did I say something about how the pres doesn’t have any access to folks who know plenty about guns? Of course he does.
I am surprised that some kook hasn’t comment about the fact that it looks like the President is shooting what looks like a Browning. That gun was probably made in Belgium. Apparently American made guns are not good enough for him!
The main point was I don’t think the president should play this game with his critics. It isn’t worth it.
“Incidentally, Paul, what is the conservative approach to treating all those mental health issues? ”
I don’t know you would have to ask them. I didn’t say anything about treating mental illness, did I?
Paul, to me suicides are a mental health issue not a gun issue, I am sure others disagree but how far out on the limb do we take this?
To me the issue is shooting other people, violence against other people, this is what I am concerned about. That is why I was mainly looking at murder rates and gun violence, not gun deaths which also include accidents and suicides etc.
But I agree we are now starting to look at a worthless debate, the net has now been caste very wide. We should have focused on stopping crazy people from getting very dangerous weapons and stopping mass killings.
“Well, yeah. You gotta be crazy to want to shoot a human being, yourself or someone else.”
What? Really? I think for a person with mental illness it can often be, like for a cop or soldier, that they may feel the need to shoot someone. It isn’t really a question of want.
But a lot of perfectly sane people shoot other people all the time.
Mervel, I agree. I also think that gun control advocates have done a good job at alienating the folks that they need support from on an issue like this (people like you and me). But in the end it may be better. It maybe a good idea discuss all of the things that some people may want to do now. How this has quickly evolved from an effort to curb the kind of carnage we saw in CT and CO and into an effort to curb other gun related violence with a very different set of issues is telling on how this debate will look. I think that is very telling.
I have learned a lot from this discussion. Thanks to everyone.
“But a lot of perfectly sane people shoot other people all the time.”
Depends on your definition of sanity.
True, but for example I consider most cops to be sane. And even some other shooters, this guy for example:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/miami-man-shoots-naked-intruder-article-1.1231935
The comments are what scare me in those kinds of articles?
“…I consider most cops to be sane.”
True enough, but I see many more stories than I’d like of cops using lethal force when it doesn’t seem called for. Granted, in overall numbers it’s a pittance.
I’m sorry, Paul, I asked you about the mental health issue because of this comment:
“Mervel and others, about 65 percent of the gun related deaths in the us in 2010 were suicide. Mental health issues are clearly the largest cause of gun related death in the us hands down.”
It does seem to me that those who feel that the problem isn’t guns, it’s our broken mental health system, need to address what they would do to fix it. It’s pretty clear that private industry isn’t going to step up to the plate. (And of course, our mental health system needs work in addition to any changes we make about guns.)
I know you’re not a hard right Conservative, Paul. I guess you’d be willing to see more money spent on it? What about the rest of our Conservatives? RC? JDM? Larry?
Hmmm… I didn’t think I’d get any takers.
RC? JDM? Larry? I’m calling you out.
Well I didn’t say it was our broken mental health system. I think that we do need background checks to make sure that people with diagnosed mental illnesses do not have access to weapons in particular military style weapons. Good luck getting that one by mental health advocates.
But I still wonder for example if more people commit suicide in Wyoming than say New York on a per-capita basis? I have no doubt that when people in Wyoming DO commit suicide they may be more likely to use guns, but do those guns lead to higher suicide rates? But I thought liberals were for the right to death with dignity?
“I think that universal background checks and a limit on magazine sizes is the most we can hope for.”
Walker, I pretty much agree on all those points. Pretty much everyone in the discussion does as well.
My question was what else are you hoping for? Some of us want to know what we might have to try next if something like universal BG checks has very little impact like I am afraid we may very well see.
One big question is what is at the root of these mental health issues (and I say this with the realization that I could be wrong that there is a mental health fix, but it seems like there is something going on). Like I said far above why does a place like Switzerland not have some of the issues that we have? Is it about mental health or is it because there is little poverty in that country? Mybe they don’t have the terrible stress that comes with modern American life?
Mervel the answer on the suicide thing and guns is to compare a country like Switzerland with one of similar size and gun ownership rates, and other equal things.
Walker, it is like some say, I can’t offer solutions, only point out the problems! Sorry, I can’t even start to pretend that I know how to fix this.
Rancid, I was engaging in completely uninformed speculation. The only difference between that and what many cable news commenters do is that I said up-front that I love uninformed speculation and that I was engaging in it.
Think of the kind of money I could be making as a professional instead of wasting my talents here as a complete amateur. Why, I could have my own show on FOX. Think of it! My name up in lights saying stupid crap with complete abandon, running off at the mouth every single day about stuff I knew nothing about. I could have a whole network, with shows where I could comment on Wall Street and finance, politics, high fashion, movies and movie stars, and everything Obama. I’m telling you I would be GREAT!
At the very least people should be sending NCPR a little bit extra in the next fund drive for the access NCPR provides to my talents.
“But I thought liberals were for the right to death with dignity?”
Well I am, anyway. But I don’t think that suicide as an impulsive act qualifies as death with dignity. Especially for the young, suicide is often a mistake, or a cry for help. Done with pills or the like, they pump your stomach, clean you up, and you start counseling. Done with a firearm, you’re toast.
Walker, I already answered you question about spending more on mental health a good week back- yes. If my choice is give up my rights or spend more on mental health, then the answer is obvious, spend more on MH.
I would also readily dispute yours and Politifacts numbers. Politifacts are at least 300K low in the military side. On the gun death side there is a huge problem- the numbers don’t add up in real world terms. If you are simply going to count all gun deaths, yeah, they are probably accurate. But you’re counting police shootings, suicides, accidents, contract killings, etc. If you wanted to make a good case for your cause you’d try and find data that is accurate. I went looking a bit and could not find, for instance, any records on the number of people to die by police gunfire over that period. One site quoted a Fed official who stated, “We have no orders to collect that information.”. Kinda makes you wonder why?
Paul, I certainly don’t have a lot of answers. But I think that our fragmented health system is part of the problem. A lot of the problem with abuse of prescription drugs stems from the fact that one doctor doesn’t know what scripts another doctor has written. If we had single-payer with a nationwide medical records system, that wouldn’t be an issue. And many insurance policies put unrealistic limits on mental health coverage.
I do think that we have gone too far in deinstitutionalizing the mentally ill. Which is not to say that going back the other way is easy to figure out how to do right. I don’t see how you could fix anything, though, without spending taxpayer money.
But it’s the culture that seems to me to be the biggest part of the problem, and I have no idea how you do anything about that. But it looks to me like we have a very sick culture, too materialistic and too individualistic, and pop culture seems to push all our worst tendencies. And it’s hard to see what would push us back toward sanity.