Shortening the long recovery
I grew up thinking I was truly working class, far more farm-and-trailer-park than diploma-and-white collar.
One grandfather was literally a dust bowl farmer. The other was a back office accounts clerk for Safeway who spent a lot of hard years hopping trains.
My dad worked his way through law school tending hogs and managing wheat harvests across the Midwest.
But when my mom started researching our family’s history a few years ago, we learned something interesting.
Before the body blow of the Great Depression, many of our ancestors were professional people, well educated and affluent — including a prominent doctor.
Then came the Crash and the crucible of the 1930s, wiping out our family’s grip on wealth and security.
It took us a couple of hardscrabble generations to recover.
I worry that the same downdraft is brewing now, a wealth-and-opportunity devouring cycle that might set families back in ways we don’t yet understand.
Consider the new Pew study, released March 25th, showing just how many people’s lives have already been scarred.
Half of Americans say they’ve lost a job or had a family member or close friend lose a job due to the financial crisis.
More than half have lost some or all of their savings.
For most Americans, our homes are our single largest assets, the source of most of our financial leverage.
But now, according to a separate study, nearly a quarter of us owe more on our homes than they are actually worth.
Whole lifetimes of wealth building, work and investment have been erased.
I’m no doomsayer. I’m convinced that American ingenuity and drive will push the economy out of the doldrums faster than most pundits think.
And I think the big systemic problems with our government — the Federal deficits, looming red ink in our social entitlement programs — can and will be fixed.
But it’s time to start thinking about how we can prevent families from falling off the cliff, the way mine did during the first Great Depression.
To create new wealth and opportunity, the first goal is to make sure that our fragile Middle Class doesn’t backslide even further.
To the extent that the government feels a need to launch new stimulus programs, the money should be targeted there: at the people who, once back on their feet, will generate our next wave of prosperity.
The second goal has to be creating new safeguards in our financial system, so that we can feel confident again.
That same Pew survey found that 74% of Americans believe there’s an even chance that we’ll experience another financial crisis in the next three years.
Sixty percent of respondents put financial sector reform at the top of their wish list, even above health care, immigration, and the Afghanistan war.
Americans are tougher and smarter than we’re given credit for.
But it’s hard to stand up and dust ourselves off and take new risks when we think the bottom might fall out again.
Your thoughts? Comment below.
"And I think the big systemic problems with our government — the Federal deficits, looming red ink in our social entitlement programs — can and will be fixed.But it's time to start thinking about how we can prevent families from falling off the cliff, the way mine did during the first Great Depression."How Brian? Common sense moves like cutting spending and lowering taxes are fought at every turn. So tell me, since my ideas are always considered ridiculous, how? You supported and were happy when a huge new entitlement was passed and then 4 days later you want economic security. Please, tell us how you can even think the two can co-exist in an insolvent economy?
what bret said. i will never reach the heights my grandparents did, my children probably won't either, and I don't think it's possible to when so many luxuries are considered rights, when so many regulations and regulators must be paid.
You know what republicans, heck the media, are failing to acknowledge about the heath bill, is the education part. If all these doctors are going to leave they need to make sure there will be replacements. Check the scope on the education legislation in the health billhttp://bit.ly/cwpFI8
And what of the families that did not recover entirely so well from the last depression, this depression is the final shot in the gut. This country was run into the ground by greedy, self-entitled people, that's what it means to be governed, civilized.
I happen to believe the work ethic, drive, sense of responsibility and perseverance of today's generation don't match that of the group that got through the Great Depression. This is just my observation from comparing my parents/grandparents while I was growing up to those that are entering the workforce today.
I'm going to throw out an idea I don't like and I suspect no one will like.When I was a kid in the 50's, the population of this country was about 150 million. Now it is over 300 million and growing.Since the 50's, many of the middle class jobs have shrunk or gone. Manufacturing and farming certainly head the list.Automation and foreign competition have been the main reasons.We were sold the idea that blue collar jobs could be replaced with white collar and service jobs. We were told everyone or most everyone needed to get a college education. To some extent, this has been true.Problem comes in when these white collar jobs are also subject to automation and foreign competition.My point is simple but scary.We may have reached a point where there are more people than jobs needed.Everyone talks about job creation as though you just snap your fingers and a job is created. If you try to do this, you lower the value (worker compensation) of the job. Not a very good solution.I don't have an answer. I'm just pointing out a problem no one seems willing to discuss.If you don't believe what I'm saying, just look at worker productivity.Business loves increasing worker productivity. It means it takes fewer workers to produce the same amount of goods and services. It also means you need fewer workers.Worker productivity continues to rise in both manufacturing and the office.I think this makes for a scary future, especially if the population continues to grow.
It is important to keep in mind that about 20% of the population is downwardly mobile at any given time, but it only when things become systemic-wide that we take notice. Your point about generational decline is well taken. Here in NNY there are large swaths of families that have never recovered from the decline of the traditional hill farm brought on by the introduction of the bulk tank and mechanized logging. Thus, 2nd and third generation welfare families. The same has happened in heavy industry in the rust belt. Individuals can take evasive action, however. Economic virtue is its own reward. The oil crisis of 1973 and a few years among the frugal yankee descendants in Northern vt. transformed me into a member of the "use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without" crowd, and it has served me well personally and financially. Here in NNY we do have options, heating with wood and gardening etc. Any government programs should be to rewarding self sufficient behavior. Take a half billion away from corporate farms and give people tax credits to write off their garden expenses. In 2 or 3 years we can match the Victory Garden movement when by 1943 over 50% of the food in this country was grown in Victory and community gardens. Return Home ec and shop to the schools and cross train both our young men and young women. In any case, these Great Recession times will be a formative influence on all of us, esp. our young people. They may come to share the values of those who came of age during the Depression.
Bret4207, common sense dictates cutting spending across the board(yes the miltary/law enforcement too) But also protecting Americas interests HERE. That is to say jobs. Go ahead; scream protectionisim all you want. The radical conservatives have told us we can compete globally. As for me; I do not believe we can compete with certain places where goods are made(READ child, $1 per day labor) that cause Americans to lose their job. Don't blame it ALL on unions! To have Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, Coulter tell me because the company that paid me $15 an hour has now left I should just dig deeper and work two $7.50 an hour jobs is wrong. Americans are upset about this country not making anything here(Don't hide behind your; environmental wackos are the problem) There need to be jobs in this country and if it takes increase tariffs to do it I'm for it. Now what's your solution; no talking points please.
What if there is no real recovery? The housing market continues to limp along and jobless rates remain high. We end up with a "lost decade" of our own. A double dip would not surprise me. I suspect that the 2 x 4 blow to the the back of the head while we are preoccupied with the fiscal crisis will be energy issues, either "above ground issues" and/or supply issues
okay, got a baby on my lap but i'll try one handed typing.First, who are the radical conservatives claiming we can compete? None that I know of. The conservative view tends to be for a true free market and we don't have that. Our costs are higher because of wages, taxes, a worthless dollar, etc. Our goods exported are subject to tariffs in other countries where similar goods may be subsidized by gov't. So no free market exists. How do we compete in that atmosphere? Only by selling something no one else has or making a far better product. IOW- we gots nuthin'.Now if you want to go for heavy tariffs on imported goods you have to realize that means much food and raw material. Many of our foods are from offshore, add tariffs and the cost goes up. Most of our raw materials and much of our finished goods are foreign. Do you really think we can clothe ourselves for instance at comparable prices in Union made clothing? My $16.00 walmart jeans would be twice the price. So either the Union has to take a pay cut or some other way has to be devised to make it affordable. HOW? More tax based subsidies? No can do. plus, if we stop buying Chinese stuff for example, they start calling in our loans. Economic terrorism. Any one who tells you to go get 2 $7.50 an hour jobs is just dealing with reality. It's your choice- if you lose your job or cost rise and your wages don't then you either change your standard of living or get another income source. I don't see any "answers" out there that people will move to willingly. What I do see is a crash coming and people having no choice in the matter. Look around- unemployment is actually over 20%, taxes are going up,up, up while revenue falls, any talk of cutting spending results in protests, fuel is going up, gold and silver up, markets are collapsing, the dollar falls, we just added a HUGE entitlement and new bureaucracy to our costs, North Korea just sunk a South Korean warship, Russian bombers are flying into British airspace, Obama just dissed Israel big time, our AIG seemingly has ties in Greece and rumors of a US bailout continue, banks continue to fail, John Deere just said the health care reform will cost then $15 Million after tax dollars and Caterpillar estimates their costs at $50 million! Meanwhile cap and trade is still on the table with promises to triple electricity costs, immigration reform is coming up, the wars are costing us and farmers are failing right and left.So you tell me, how will tariffs fix any of this?
The answer is tax cuts of course. I know I could use that extra 200-400 dollars. It would go a long way towards purchasing a few tanks of gasoline or a months groceries. Or maybe tax cuts for business. What, on top of all the subsidies we already give them? Business doesn't look out for me, they look out for their stockholders.Or how about buying gold like Beck does? A few ingots of gold should make anyone feel better.As for me. I'm better off than my parents just as my parents were better off than their parents. I'm sure my "child" will be better off than me. How did we do this? Simple. Education and a willingness to move where the jobs are. Oh yes, a positive outlook seems to help also.
Great idea, I never thought of it that way. Let's move to China or better yet Mexico. Lots of great jobs there that use to be American jobs. Until those greedy greedy Wall oops UNIONS ruined it all and MADE those companies move overseas
Capital will flow to where it creates the best returns, you can't legislate that nor can any government really control that.This recession is bad, but in a relative sense. It still is not as bad as a whole decade was in the great depression. Yes we may lose wealth, some families may bounce back others may not; but is that all we are about? Is that the only measure of ourselves and our country? We have to realize that our happiness and peace and our families worth is not totally dependent on continually upwardly mobile careers, bigger homes, more cars and more education.
"a worthless dollar, etc."Bret, how would that make us less competitive?When a currency weakens, it makes a country's exports cheaper. That's why China has fought tooth and claw to keep its currency value artificially low; keeps its export machine humming.Anyway, the dollar is still, overall, quite strong compared to most other currencies.
FC- worthless in the sense that we cannot back it. There literally isn't enough gold in the world to cover our debt. So worthless as far as being able to buy raw materials from other countries at a realistic price that can allow us to be competitive.Mervel- you are the optimist.The problem is we haven't finished the recession, in fact I believe we haven't even started the next depression yet. Let's see what the fall brings. I've stated before, the next round of commercial foreclosures and bankruptcies is due to start later this year. That will be one of the more critical times.
Bret,Yes you might be right about another dip or even a depression. To me the longer term problem is who we are as a people. What I mean by that is right now we have around 25% of all US teenagers who don't graduate from HS, we passed a milestone a couple of years back that only a minority of US children are being raised in families by their married parents. The majority are in other situations, the majority! What does that really mean for our world wide competitive stance for our future, for the happiness and well being of our children? I think we are seeing what it means and that will only get worse. There are billions of people out there who would die to have the privelage to get a free high school education, they will work their butts off for any opportunity, and they are not stupid people. After saying all of that this is still a great place to live for me the best place to live. Part of freedom is the right to fail and we might have to go through that. In the end I am still optimistic and I still have hope. We are more than our ability to produce goods and services.
"So worthless as far as being able to buy raw materials from other countries at a realistic price that can allow us to be competitive."Bret, maybe in the future, this will be true. But right now, a gallon of gas is still cheaper than a gallon of milk. We're still getting good deals on a lot of raw materials. Because our currency is, comparatively, fairly strong.
Next, lets see what kind of immigration reform is proposed.
This country became wealthy precisely because hard-working men and women were given the opportunity to achieve all they could, and keep most of it themselves.You can't social engineer wealth. It's been tried and has never succeeded.National debt transfers wealth from the lenders (the next generation) to the lendees (the current generation). We are literally robbing our children when we take on huge debt.Health care will eventually transfer "wealth", or in this case "benefits", from the elderly and sick, to the young and healthy. We are literally going to rob health and life from those deemed less able.You want to see us prosper?Get the government out of the way, and let the American people work and keep what they earn. This economy and this nation will skyrocket to heights that no other country can imagine.
"Get the government out of the way, and let the American people work and keep what they earn."sounds like a nice sound bite but who pays the teachers? who pays to pave the roads? who keeps the libraries open? the museums? who pays the police force? the prison guards? the armed forces? the national guard? the professors? the judges?The government happens to pay a whole lot of hard working Americans with tax dollars. Keep cutting taxes and jobs will be cut.
Pat, some of those jobs you mention are due for some cuts- the museums, professors, the libraries. In years past those types of institutions and people in those jobs weren't on the public dole to the extent they are now, certainly the jobs weren't as lucrative as they are now. Many of the other jobs you mention previously had salaries more in line with the median income instead of a higher income. Others are simply better handled by private industry. Gov't does provide many jobs, but many of those jobs are highly over paid and the benefits are obscene in some cases- Congress for instance!The taxpayer can no longer be considered an inexhaustible pool of money, it just can't be done any more if we want to survive as a nation.
Fact Checker- I just paid $1.99 for a gallon of 2% milk at Nice and Easy and $3.03 for regular gas. Sorry, but your figures don't add up.What Bret4207 failed to note is that our money doesn't have the buying power it did even a year ago here at home. Inflation is creeping along steadily and it matters for more than raw materials on the international market. Our US dollar doesn't buy as much China junk at Wal Mart as it did a year or even a month ago. Why? Because our Treasury is printing money night and day in an effort to put more dollars into the economy. The problem is there is no value behind that money, he got that part right. Now the Fed Chair is suggesting banks no longer be required to have a cash reserve in an effort to put even more cash in the flow. That will only make it worse. If they draw in the physical Federal Reserve Notes then interest will creep up and that will cause problems. There is no simple answer to this issue.
Are things really this bad? Man, you read comment threads like this and it sounds like the ship is sinking.And that is soooooo far from the reality that I live in right now. I have to question whether this angst and depression is as wide spread as people make it sound. Or if it is the product of a vocal minority.Personally, I'm doing much better than I was 10 years ago, FAR better than my parents have ever done… and this applies to just about every single person I know. It definitely applies to all of my close friends and coworkers – past and present.I go out to dinner with the new friends I've met in this area and I have yet to hear someone complain about working 2 minimum wage jobs… or complain at all really, for that matter.I mean, are things REALLY as bad as people are making them out to be?I have no doubt that some people are struggling, and I don't mean to make light of that… I just doubt the masses are at their tipping point the way some here try to make it sound.
pat said-"The government happens to pay a whole lot of hard working Americans with tax dollars. Keep cutting taxes and jobs will be cut."March 26, 2010 10:00 PMtrue but they pay themselves first and very very well…
Real incomes for the majority of Americans has fallen and has been falling for quite some time combined with the fact that some Americans are richer than ever with income inequality increasing. The fact is for decades we have been encouraging other countries to embrace free market principles and develop their economies. They have done so and we have lost some of our competitive advantage, that won't change anytime soon. But I don't have a problem with that, we can't define our country materialistically all of the time. If all we have to say for ourselves that is unique about our culture and us as a people is a big GDP, well that seems rather shallow and really what kind of a future is that? We do need to figure out a way to take care of the most vulnerable among us though. We could start right here in the North Country which has one of the highest rates of childhood poverty and hunger in the state of NY.
Not that bad- it's not the individual that's in real trouble, especially if they have a couple of jobs. It's the financial system and the debt our nation owes that will drag all of us down. It's the fact our dollar is basically just electrons with no real value behind it. We only have buying power at this point because our trading partners agree we do. At this point we have so much debt and have obligated ourselves to so much future spending that it appears there simply is no way out, not without taking drastic measures. I'm not entirely clear on the mechanisms, but at this point it looks like the "easiest" way out is to devalue our dollar. As I understand it that way we would be paying back the money we owe at a reduced rate. Of course that would also throw the entire world financial market into turmoil and would probably throw us into a period of wild inflation. Imagine $15.00 a gallon gas. There are any number of other possible scenarios. The important thing is that our economy is frail. We have no real base to our economy any more. It used to be agriculture and manufacturing. We used to produce much of our raw materials. Now we have a few mega corporations running agriculture, which is fine in one sense, but isn't very diversified and safe. Our manufacturing is a shadow of what it once was. Blame it on the corporations, unions, taxes, regulation, whatever. The fact remains we let our industry leave. So now we depend on someone else to provide us with our products. We have obligations we simply cannot meet.I'm lousy at explaining the problems. Read up a little and try and see this from the larger view. Just as the North Country isn't in a huge slump because we never experienced the "boom", that doesn't mean the rest of the country is doing fine. Unemployment is supposed to be around 10%, but when you add in the people not bothering to look for work anymore, who remain on assistance of some kind or are getting by through other means, the number is supposed to be closer to 23-24%. THAT is not a good thing.
Hey Brian, seems like your forebearers did just fine. Maybe they lost some money but it seems like you turned out okay. Why are so many comments on here all about assets? I'm not rich but I've worked hard and I'm doing alright. I have a son just finishing his Masters degree at NorthEastern this year and daughter getting her BS at SUNY. They have some debt but its manageable. Our house is small, and old but its paid for. We keep a small garden and we don't have a lot of assets but we don't have a lot of debts either. We don't own: an ATV, a snowmobile, a boat (do have a canoe), a trailer to haul a boat or snowmobile, a truck to haul the trailer, cable TV, a big expensive car, a snowblower or leaf blower, an iphone, blow-up lawn ornaments for every holiday…still I feel content.
Good points knuckelhead.
All the feelings of contentment in the world won't fix the debt load we carry or keep us able to afford to purchase basic goods. Feelings won't fix anything. If what you want is a lower standard of living across the board I'm afraid your wish may be granted, but not in the way you want.
knucklehead, all so true. We live pretty close here as well but no debt, other than the car I need for work. House paid for, modest but ours. How did people become convinced that they needed all this stuff? My relatives down state would come to visit and be bored here. No 4- wheeler, no satelite tv with a trillion channels, no pool, no hot tub, no high speed internet. The simple pleasures just didn't seem to cut it. For me it doesn't get any better than living in the country. (do I hear the Green Acres song starting up in the background?) I guess that a topic for a future thread could be the true meaning of happiness. NCPR ran a show on this some time ago. I think it was featured on an episode of On Point.
Okay, warm, fuzzy feelings aside, what does "the other side" see coming and how do we make the best of it? I see no argument with the basic scenario I laid out. Surely some of the intellectuals here can explain how more spending and higher taxes, along with higher energy and food costs, will hep us avoid the dismal future. In truth Brain, I don't think we have the power to shorten the long recovery. I don't think anyone in Gov't has any clue on how to fix it. As I said a few threads back- this is a real good time to start getting a bit more self sufficient.
Many people on this board continue to talk about doing better than their parents did, and hoping their children will do better than them. Where is the top? Is there a level of "better" that is just right? How do we know when we have reached it?
The truth is, Jen, some will do better and some will not.It has always been so and will always be so.It is true for families, towns, states and countries.
yes some do better than others, that's the nature of it–but when (as i perceive it) the government greedily greases the slope to make it near impossible for any NATURAL ascent by those not on top of the hill to get to the top- well it's time to throw the "kings of the hill" off their throne.there is more to it than "that's just the way it is"there is natural abilities, and there are entitlements, as well as the rights bestowed just by birth into a position. what i feel is the natural next step is the system crumbling to the ground.self sufficiency will prevail.
Bret,I think we are looking at more of a 1970's scenario. Our tax rates even after they are raised will not quite reach the marginal rates we had in that time period. Some people think we are entering a period like the British Empire went through as it collapsed. I would tend to agree. At least I hope we look more like their collapse and no the Soviet Unions Collapse. Look at a map sometime of where we have bases and forces and warships stationed, we are literally all over the globe, throw in trying to take care of an aging population and now spending on health care, we just can’t do it all. I know I have mentioned this before but there are some extremely conservative economists who actually believe huge deficits can be a good thing. Why? Well at some point most of our government spending will simply go toward servicing our debt, this will mean the government literally will not have the means or power to interject itself in our lives. It will be a huge constraint on government and its ability to do anything at all.This may happen although I still think we are some ways off, but who knows?
"I just paid $1.99 for a gallon of 2% milk at Nice and Easy"Unfortunately, no Nice and Easy where I live. I'd need to clip coupons to get that price.
Mervel, forgive me, but none of your argument solves any of the problems of gives me any comfort. Are you suggesting that by raising taxes and keeping Gov't spending high to the point our Gov't implodes would be a good thing? Sorry, but at that point just what do you picture America looking like? Bosnia? Ethiopia? Yeesh!As for "some conservative economists", I once had implicit trust in a guy named Al Greenspan. Pardon me if I go with my gut rather than trusting another intellectual who gives advice that goes contrary to common sense, but which everyone says must be right since he's sooooo smart. I'll stick with the tried and true, "Would this work at your house?" theory. That's the one that says we can;t continue to spend more than we take in, that you can;t borrow your way out of debt and that if you give children everything they want without working for it you end up with spoiled, lazy brats.
Bret, Haha, no I bet they don't make you feel better; they don't make me feel better. But the citizens are not the Federal government; the federal government is one branch of one part of our government. The government itself is only one part of our society and culture, not even the most important part. Most of the day to day taxes that you and I pay and the services we receive for those taxes have NOTHING to do with the federal government. Most of our day to day life, family, work, faith, have nothing to do with the Federal Government. If the Federal government goes bankrupt, well yes I won't get my social security check but just personally that’s about it. Our power and greatness does not lie in the federal government we would still be a great country.
Mervel, so "don't worry, be happy?"
"If the Federal government goes bankrupt, well yes I won't get my social security check but just personally that’s about it."Mervel, don't enjoy agreeing with Bret here, but if the fed govt goes under, lots of conveniences people enjoy, including cheap gas, food and roads, will disappear.And I'm not sure Americans weaned on all of the above can handle it.
12:41- It stings, doesn't it? Kudos for at least recognizing the Federal Gov't is a little more than just the Social Security Administration. While I understand Mervels feelings on this, and I agree a less consumer driven society is something to shoot for, what I'm concerned about goes far beyond SS, the post office and the highway system. If you can't comprehend or accept the idea of a collapsed nation and what it would mean for us all… we have a gap that is hard to bridge. Picture New Orleans after Katrina, only nationwide without FEMA and the military to assist you.
One of the largest drains on the Fed budget is the wars. Terrorisim; as chompsky said; (paraphase) ".. one good way to stop it(terroisim) is to stop participating in it." If our military is needed in another country then that country should pay for it. Under that theory gas would be about free by now and Israel would be further in debt to us than we are to China.
ha, well the Federal Gov is not going to "go under". What will happen is that more and more of our taxes will go to simply making debt payments. When that starts to happen the credit markets will say, hey these guys are a bigger risk we need to charge more interest and it will build. We will pay our tab,but we won't be able to do as much as we do now. Social Security will be severely cut for example. OK so I work until 75 or I die I can handle that. No bret not don't worry be happy, just realistically look at what will or may happen. Change the things we can and don't worry about the things we can't. \Greece is bankrupt, they don't look like NO after Katrina. I mean it is not good but they will come out of it. Iceland went bankrupt they survived. Even if the worst happens we will make it. Have a little faith dude!
Mervel, are Greece and Iceland the worlds largest consumers? I didn't think so. Greece is #27 and Iceland #101. Together they represent less than 1/16th of USA GDP. If the US goes kerploomb, everything else follows. For instance- the US Gov't, in their infinite and unfailing wisdom, decides that using corn based ethanol is a sure fix to high fuel prices. Never mind that it makes nearly no sense. So what happens when the per bushel price of corn skyrockets on speculation of high corn prices? The poor in Mexico and other parts of Latin and South America suffer those high prices and food becomes a big problem. Good for American grain growers, not so hot for the oppressed peasants to our south. Cause and effect- the US stops buying because we enter a depression and the rest of the world follows. It happened in the Great Depression too and we weren't the consumer of foreign goods then that we are now.Faith is a wonderful thing, but it won't feed your nation.
"Picture New Orleans after Katrina, only nationwide without FEMA"What, exactly, did FEMA do to help New Orleans? You mean not send anybody for five days?
8:41- Exactly, only FEMA isn't going to show up at all.
Bret, as much contempt as you have for all things govt, how can you live with yourself being married to a public employee, as I think you've stated on earlier threads?
I don't have contempt for all things gov't my anonymous friend. I just have no patience with a gov't that has spent the last 70 years becoming more and more socialist, more and more corrupt and less and less able to maintain anything close to fiscal discipline, all while treating American business and taxpayers like an inexhaustible pool of money. I worked in state gov't for 23 years, I saw the good and the bad and I watched the spending go from bad to worse to unconscionable, at least for me it was. I have no problem with good gov't, I admire good gov't, it's needed. My problem is with a gov't that figured out that the people can't or won't control that gov't as long as gov't provides "something" for them. With the Romans it was "bread and circus", with us it seems to be health care, social security, welfare, a tax refund, and vague promises of better days ahead through hope and change.I'll make it simple- gov't, local, state and federal, is robbing you blind. They TAKE from the producers and use that money to buy votes to ensure reelection which allows them to remain in power and amass more money/power. That's my beef in very simple terms. Both major parties are up to their necks in corruption and neither will or can fix the problem. The only way to fix it is to start at the grass roots local level and rebuild our republic one step at a time while making it absolutely clear that gov't works FOR the people, that politicians are not above their constituency and that public service should be a noble calling, that corruption at any level will not be tolerated and that the Constitution and BoR are the law of the land, not outdated general suggestions on how things are supposed to be. You get to that point and you won't have unimaginable debt, you won't have bail outs, stimulus plans, Patriot Acts, decades long non-declared wars, deficit spending, fiat currency, The Fed. You won't have a tax code that is hundreds of thousands of pages long with loop holes for every conceivable industry that paid the right Senator and you wouldn't need the IRS. In fact, the size of gov't at the Federal level would probably be 1/10th or so the size it is now, maybe smaller. The States would have their rights "returned" to them and local control of much of what the Federal gov't runs would return where it belongs.I don't mean to write a manifesto here. I'd just like it understood I don't hate gov't. I just hate what it's become. Read the writings of Adams and Jefferson and the Founders and then tell me we did right by them.
Sounds like a manifesto to me, Bret. Check the dictionary.
Pretty snarky of you Pat. Lighten up.