Dear Upstate: evolve or die…
Actually, the headline from yesterday’s New York Times Oped contributor was “Struggling Towns Must Evolve or Die” but it amounts to very much the same thing.
The Times posed the question “Can New York be Saved?” to a number of people, and got a variety of thinking. Mitchell Moss’s response caught my eye. It’s pretty short, but here’s the takeaway:
The entire state cannot survive if we continue to act as if all 62 counties can flourish.
(snip)
Albany needs to make a strategic decision to invest in a handful of places upstate that are willing to do the serious work of revitalizing their own economies and that have the right mix of educational institutions, skilled labor and entrepreneurial know-how to compete in the 21st century.For the rest, we must accept the inevitable. Across the Midwest and Great Plains, state governments have allowed towns with a proud past but no discernible future to fade away. New York must do the same.
Moss, a professor at NYU’s Wagner Graduate School of Public Service, argues that New York State spends billions propping up communities of the past (he mentions Buffalo, “the city of the future”) while letting the infrastructure vital for growing urban areas (that would be New York City) go begging.
It sounds unnecessarily brutal. But you don’t have to wait for a change in state policy and priorities to see how brutal. Drive anywhere in this region for very long and you’ll find yourself on a formerly thriving Main Street, with vestiges of small city architecture of the 19th century left. And much of that preserved by, well, “preservation” grants and subsidies.
Do communities like Plattsburgh and Potsdam and Saranac Lake have the potential to demonstrate Moss’s “right mix of educational institutions, skilled labor and entrepreneurial know-how?” Is there a place for small towns? I think yes; that’s where we live. So yes. But how to bend the curve away from the trajectory Moss sketches?
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I believe attention to what is appropriate to an area is also a prime concern. I mention this because of the increasing drumbeat on the part of local Poo-bah's in the North Country who are quietly getting their ducks in a row to build a multi-billion dollar, four lane, "Highway Of Dreams", (build it and they will come). The thinking goes that if you build this 4 lane highway and cut the North country in half, that there will be a sudden clamor on the part of industry far and wide to locate industrial facilities in the area leading to thousands and thousands of jobs … of course we have to build the road first. I believe this thinking does not show any understanding of the North COuntry and it's history, or any understanding of state-wide economics. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Rome, Utica, Amsterdam, Schenectady and Troy already have a super highway connecting them across the mid-section of the state. They have large airports, a decent railroad system with freight and passenger capability, grid capacity, telecommunications capacity of scale and yet, they are struggling to hold on to the business that they have, much less attract more. The North COuntry would have to develop and duplicate much of these capabilities to even be in the running. Why else would a business rush to locate in Moira, or West Stockholm? Jobs? Yes, for a couple of years, going to mostly large construction firms from elsewhere who have the capability to build such a road. Then what? Nobody knows and there are no guarantees beyond, "build it and they will come". I have an idea. Let's take a fraction of that money, upgrade Rt 11, fix the bridges that are falling into the water and maintain the roads that we have already. Let's not tear up the North COuntry until we know a lot more about what the outcome will be!
Evolve or die seems about right, or maybe devolve to a time when people in upstate NY went out and made their own future, making their own jobs. It may have been riskier than getting a prison job, or county job, or teaching job…not that there is anything wrong with those jobs, they pay well and have had good benefits… but they are jobs that recycle tax money. They do not add wealth to the common pot in the same way that someone like a guideboat builder does. We need more people to be entrepreneurial (like they were 100 years ago) but that involves taking personal risk. We also need people in the community to be more openminded to other ideas and other ways of doing things, and to be open to "outsiders". Check out http://www.etsy.com for a start.
Is upstate NY, specifically the North Country, a good place to be entrepreneurial?Also what does death mean in this context?
I really don't see why "educational institutions" are necessary to an areas profiting. I think that's the professors bias showing.Put simply, Northern NY cannot depend on someone else to provide us a living. But, just like the industrial concerns that have been allowed to seek other countries with more business friendly environments, Northern NY has let her "industries" whither away. I don't see much chance of the mines re-opening, or GM returning to Massena, or the Air Force returning to Plattsburgh or agriculture starting to really pay again. Any talk of resort communities results in near instant decapitation of the proponent, talk of logging results in the same thing, and wispy notions of "green jobs" and "telecommuting" seem to be no more than ashes in the wind. We let, to an extent at least, a lot of our jobs die off. We didn't know we were doing it, but we did let them go.The super 4 lane highway? Please, get real. You can't even build a bypass around traffic nightmares like Canton and Potsdam without having every body out to block it ASAP! It's fantasy, pure and simple.I think the guy is right. Honestly, Northern NY was always bugs, mud and snow and nothing will change that. We love it and want it to survive, but we can't expect welfare from the rest of the state to keep us alive. If we're to live, we have to do it ourselves.
What a great post & comments.There are a lot of places facing this exact dilemma. On my side of the border, former manufacturing towns in Southern Ontario, after the main employer closes.My home state, Hawaii, which habitually insists on putting all the eggs in a single basket. (Big surprise: tourism is one of the first things to dry up in hard times. And it doesn't bounce back right away when things ease up either.)What else can prop up an economy? When? And how?Perhaps it's not for this stringer to say, but I'd like to think the kind of synergy generated at NCPR-type efforts is at least a small part of the answer. (Many times 'we' turns out out to be stronger than 'me'.) We far corners of the world need to find more ways to create 'added value' out of existing resources. jdan4 makes a good point that big dream projects don't necessarily deliver the answer. (And could arguably spoil what makes a region special in the first place.)I suspect high speed for (almost) all might create a bigger bang for the buck. Internet connectivity is just as much the highway of the future as the asphalt versions. And it doesn't spoil as many view plains."Evolve or die" is what most states drowning in red ink must confront too. Not too many places get a pass on this particular test.So many challenges. We sure are living in interesting times!
Brett, think "value added" and local. Agriculture may be a bright spot in the future as it was in the past but people have to start buying locally grown apples (for example) rather than New Zealand apples. Bulk milk sales may not be the answer for dairies but artisanal cheese may help the balance sheets of those farms. There will always be logging in northern NY, let's start more value added wood products businesses. And the value of educational institutions? Helping to open peoples minds and expand their intellectual horizons.
I suspect Mitchell Moss will die first (is it okay to say that about an individual if he says it about my home town?). Anyway, it'd be no Superbowl, but I'd have some wings and a Genny Light over it.
Just another anti-upstate NY NYC elitist. He talks about a lack of investment in NYC infrastructure. What about the massive bailout NYC's public transport system received last year? Or how about the 700 billion Wall Street bailout? Meanwhile crumbling upstate bridges like Crown Point close. Where exactly does NYC's electrical and waters supplies come from and where is it's garbage taken to? Imagine how much cheaper power would be in the North Country if we actually got to keep some of our cheap hydropower. This idea of blame upstate is also unfortunate. He makes no mention of the crushing regulatory burden imposed on upstate businesses. A burden NYC lawmakers have refused to allow to be eased. Indeed, they are constantly looking for ways to make it worse. A NYC lawmaker, Felix Ortiz, recently introduced legislation requiring ski resorts to provide helmets and would fine them every time a patron doesn't wear one and eventually temporarily suspend their license. Does Ortiz realize how much of a burden it would be for resorts to make sure all of their patrons are wearing helmets? How many watchers would resorts have to hire to enforce such a foolish rule? The APA is anothe good example. What business would want to come to the Adirondacks after the hastle they gave Lowes? It sounds like to me the best way for upstate to survive might be to secede.
Here's another aspect to the problem, Wall Street. We've seen the problems associated with the businesses that are considered "too big to fail" well, we have a class of people now who are "too rich to tax". They have managed to get the tax laws written so that they pay 15% or less on all of their income. When the richest do not pay their fair share it becomes difficult for the rest of us to pay for the infrastructure that is the tree on which their wealth grows. To add insult to injury these are some of the same people who have shipped our manufacturing jobs elsewhere, gotten big bonuses to do so, and told us that it is all in the best interests of "the shareholders" around which all stars rotate. Meanwhile, we cannot raise the taxes on the rich or they will move somewhere else. Suffer on brother serfs!
Also you are looking at two totally different competitive environments between upstate and NYC.NYC, regardless of our complaints, is a world capital, it competes with the other great cities of the world. It competes well against those cities. Compared to other great cities NYC is not overly taxed or overly regulated.Upstate is competing with other post industrial and rural areas of the US. So what happens through no real fault of anyone is that Upstate is straddled with a NYC tax and regulatory structure and told to go compete against Nebraska the Dakotas or the South for new businesses and jobs.
A further perspective. As mentioned above, many industries; logging, mining, as well as light manufacturing left this area. I don't believe it was because the area was unfriendly to business, but rather, the scale of economic viability of these businesses grew beyond our local ability to participate. The hey day of the small river towns was basically from the 1870's through until the Great Depression. After that there is a long, slow decline, as small business and industry is centralized to other regions, or driven under by by competition. The railroads were the heartbeat of the region from the 1870's until the 1950's and '60's until they were discontinued one by one. The North Country has supported farming successfully since it was first settled in the late 1700's. The current model of agriculture, dairy farming, is in jeopardy due to economic and regulatory conditions. On the other hand, small niche farming is on the rise. There is much experimentation going on in this are that bears watching as it provides the greatest hope for the North Country finding itself. I think that trying to duplicate a downstate economic model is a fools errand. A very successful local entrepreneur said to me that she decided to start the business that she did when she realized that northern New York was a lot more like Vermont, New Hampshire and MAine than it was like the rest of new york. Food for thought.
Mr. Moss provides a simple view of a not so simple system. NYC sells things that were made by people who do not live there ,with products grown someplace else, built from the steel to the bricks to the glass, and all of it imported. New York City's commodity is a dream. Wall Street is based on faith. A stock goes up and is traded and people make money not because some company is better today than yesterday, but because people have faith in it. The same with the Banks. A Financial Center is just a Casino with nicer statues and lots of suits. It is rural areas that send the water, and make the electricity and the raw materials and food that keeps it all running. We are tied at the hip, regardless if anybody likes it or not.
There are 2 state things our state lawmakers and future governor can do to revive upstate:1. Immediately halt the introduction of any new or increased mandates, regulations, taxes, and fees. 2. Conduct a top-to-bottom review of all existing mandates and regulations. Those mandates and regulations that do not have a compelling justification should be eliminated. Absent elimination, the state should give municipalities the option to opt out of these regulations.
Or simply look at two regulatory and tax structures. I sympathize with people in NYC seeing the net outflow of their taxes to support many things upstate.However we really have nothing in common economically with NYC it would be better to find a way to un-bind us from the mega City taxes and regulations that exist in the City. But at the same time that would mean less transfers up here, which in the long run would be good. However I don't see that happening because what it would mean is a hit to unionized government jobs and politically that is impossible right now and possibly always.
There are a lot of compelling arguments here. The bottom line is that New York has gotten too big and too bureaucratic. Just as in California, too many people, with too many rules. It will be impossilbe for NYC and the beautiful north country to ever agree on anything. A classic "the haves versus the have-nots". Just as not that long ago in our countries history…"head west young man"!
Those "crushing regulations" are not the problem. As jdan4 points out we have more in common with N. Vermont, NH and Maine, and they certainly are not having similar problems due to the long regulatory reach of Albany, NY.I am actually somewhat optimistic about NNY, but "success" won't be the suburban ideal. We have a lot of usable resources that are undervalued. Bret is right though no one else is going to save us. The North Country Symposium often ends up discussing these issues. This year it will be held the evening of April 6 and all day April 7. It is often said the Symposium doesn't accomplish anything–but that is up to us. What it does do is provide is a forum for discussions like this one, plus a chance to network.Doug W.
Knucklehead- To whom do we sell these local apples and artisan cheeses? In an area where lowest cost always wins you need to transport your commodity out of the area to get a decent price. That's why the big goat dairy plans of 20 years ago died, why the local cheese plants closed, why the local non-dairy producers get a lower price than someone closer to Syracuse/Ithaca for example. I've seen any number of ideas fail because the interest and infrastructure just isn't there in the real world. You may get 20% more by trucking to New Holland and selling there, but the trucking eats up the profit. If someone has a good idea, I'm all ears, but with our overhead it's nearly impossible to see any way to turn agriculture into a profitable venture based on local buyers. Put bluntly, the local population wants the most bang for their buck and unless we adopt an Amish lifestyle we can't compete with Aldis/Price Chopper/etc.Local wood products? Again, give me some ideas. It seems regulations, environmental zealotry and real world economics conspire against any modern success in that area.As for the educational institutions, people can expand their horizons and open their minds without having enormous tax free, tax payer subsidized, economic sinkholes in the area.I'm amazed no one has jumped all over those who mention Nothern NY seceding from the NYC area as unAmerican revolutionaries and all round nasty people. It makes sense for the area outside NYC and the metropolitan area to be a different state, just as it does in other places (California). A little short term pain might well be preferable to the long term cancer we presently endure.
Brett people are doing it, just not enough of them. We need people with open minds not just people who are good at whining and complaining that it cant be done.
If the local population doesn't see the value of local products either change the products or change the venue of the sale. Look at the number of artisanal cheesemakers that have cropped up in Washington county over the last few years. Many of them are selling at farmers markets in NYC. That may be too far from St Lawrence county but Syracuse isn't. There must be somebody in Utica or Watertown who will pay a premium for quality local cheese. Nettle Meadow farm in Johnsburg has been selling goat cheese to restaurants in the Hudson Valley and NYC for decades.
Dear Adk. Park you are just as much a jewel of NYS as Broadway, the Empire Site building, Ground Zero, Citi Bank ball park or any of the other great NYS venues. YOU ARE NOT on the public dole(that would imply you are lazy and alot of other derogatory adjectives)However, like the other great sites you must be maintained to continue for generations of people not just from NYS but from all people. How do we pay for it? We could start by collecting taxes on goods and services sold to non natives at reservations. It would not just be NYS looking to collect their just due but the entire U.S. of A. Continue by preventing Canada's gov't subsidized wood industry from dumping products on the U.S. market and while your at it prevent China from doing the same. MY 2 cents. I can hear it now…'that will never work blah blah blah..'
The open minds are here, so are those of us that have bashed our heads against the wall trying this stuff in the past. It's just not as simple as you make it out to be. You try leading for a while, go for it. I'll follow if you can find the path.
We could follow the lead of our Native Americans and stop oppressing them.Why not expand the Res to include all of northern NY?We might not be able to ship tobacco products out of the expanded Res but we would attract some smokers to live here and the price of gas would be less for us.Casinos and topless bars would also attract a lot of people.Let's open up this place and stop being a bunch of goody two shoes.
Mr Klein, I certainly hope you're joking. Turning the whole of the No Co into a cess pool like Akwasane is grounds for moving to darn near anywhere else.
Well, why can't we take our organic products over to Vermont? When I lived in Burlington, organic eggs were 4 dollars a dozen! And on the other side of the ferry, organic eggs were selling for just a dollar. From my experience, Vermont has the money and the market for more expensive organic products than upstate NY.
A lot less government and taxes and a lot more educational opportunities for the adult population would at least make you more attractive to potential employers. OH, and next time you buy, buy local or at least products made in this country. If you don't want to wither and die you must water the roots.
Pete and anon 9:25 am. Communities will take any avenue out of chronic poverty they can find. In the case of Akwesasne, it used to be exporting workers for hard and dangerous work on high steel, or working in the three big industries around Massena. GM is gone and Reynolds merged into Alcoa and downsized. Big construction is in the doldrums. When New York opened up Indian gaming, and gave tax-free smokes and gas a wink and a nod–of course they went for it, just as their neighbors went for prison expansion and Empire zones, and chased the super-conducting super-collider and NASCAR pipe dreams.And they took advantage of their border location to smuggle hydroponic marijauna, tobacco, illegal aliens, etc. Just as their neighbors all along the border cashed in on Prohibition. A lot of North Country family fortunes have their roots in "Canadian Club."I wouldn't call Akwesasne a cess-pool unless you want to expand the pool to include poor communities all across the North Country.
Gov't is not the solution. However, you are correct if you think; when their is a law, that law should be inforced. Case and point non natives must be taxed. Further if there is a law, NAFTA(AKA giant sucking sound), then that law can be changed through the legislative process.
I say we DIE. Who cares what Mitchell Moss says. Graduate School of Public Service! Give me a break! When I saw this in the Times I knew it would make it to the In Box. Everyone's comments are good. But don't listen to this guy.
The colleges are not just about ideas. Besides being driving the local economy–the private colleges bring many non-public dollars into the region. Small numbers of students do decide to remain in NNY adding to the human capital of the region. SUNY Canton provides much needed training and work place skills to many North Country young people. Clarkson is doing research in energy and entrepreneurial training. Our regional colleges from JCC to Plattsburgh are undervalued and underutilized resources that can play an important role in our future.While I realize it is hard to justify paying $1500 more for a car in St. Lawrence County than Plattsburg, buying local first may be a possible way out our economic malaise. Every dollar we spend that leaves the region is a nail in our coffin. The money is already there to benefit the region, it is just locked up in negative ways.
Evolve or die???? The writer should listen to NCPR local news and he would learn the North Country IS evolving and will be fine. One thing that can and needs to change is the focus and priorities of our local economic development agencies. We need to stop chasing smoke stacks and 4 lane highways and support local entrepreneurs, spin offs from local colleges, small agricultural operations, etc.
The colleges are a drain on the local economy. Take away their tax free exemptions, force them to house the students on private property instead of dorms on campus and to feed the students at local establishments and then you;d see some return of the tax dollars.
Carol, I doubt the data would support that position. The students generate a lot of economic activity and Potsdam and Canton would be like Morley and Hannawa Falls if they closed.
But even if we compare ourselves to Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine and throw in Mass, Penn and Conn., We still have HIGEHR local taxes than those states. http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/10/pf/taxes/state_tax_rates/index.htmWe have the second highest state taxes in the nation. Now that may be okay in the largest city in the nation, but it does not work very well in places like Massena. So given that we have higher taxes than all of the surrounding states on a per capita basis we would expect better schools, roads, lower rates of poverty. But we don't see that at all. I just think we need to re-consider the environment that we have created for small and micro-businesses to survive and thrive. We have much more in common with rural West Virginia than we do rural Vermont. (I will add that I like WV and that is not a cut down but a statement of reality).
Massena! They rode the gravey train of their Big 3 and added to it with cheap electricity compared to the rest of NYS. Now, their chickens are home to roost.
When I moved to the Adirondacks my taxes actually went down.I moved from a state that is about middle of the pack on that CNN list, far below NY. So I am not sure what to make of that. All I know is that I've long heard how harsh the taxes were here, and then when we ran the numbers before our move it was actually a tax cut for us. Beats me, I'm not a tax accountant, but the issue seems more nuanced than it is often made out to be… at least in some cases.
"We have much more in common with rural West Virginia than we do rural Vermont."No, we don't. We have some environmental regulations that prevent things like mountain top removal for mining, and still have potable water.And Bret, "I really don't see why "educational institutions" are necessary to an areas profiting. I think that's the professors bias showing."No, that's the economic growth of North Carolina's Research Triangle Park and the Silicon Valley and Austin, Texas, and, yes, Burlington, VT, showing.Finally, I telecommute. Draw a pay check there, pay taxes up here. For years. I don't see anybody up here recruiting people from urban areas who are willing to do that, though.So those potential taxpayers (and possible entrepreneurs) go someplace else.
Dave, I assume that you are talking about property with the same relative value. When I moved from Denver to NY my taxes went up about 3 times. That was for a house here that was LOWER in value. In exchange for that I got fewer services. I am not complaining that was my choice, but this state does eat you up in taxes and you get very little in return.
Lets not start hating on Massena just because we got all the good stuff back in the 1950s, no one asked NY State to come flood our river and destroy what would now be a great tourist attrachtion, actually the United States didn't want to be a part of the Seaway but was kind of forced into it by Canada. Massena Electric has nothing to do with the three industrial plants that were here, those plants are serviced by New York State ala the Power Authority. We were just smart enough back in the 70s to tell NiMo to shove their poles up their rears and take a hike. And its not like we didn't pay for it, NiMo stopped any repairs on the electric grid once ME started to come about, and we've spent 20 years repairing and improving on it.Alcoa East and General Motors were only here because of the Power Authority ala New York State. Alcoa West was here half a century before the other two, and hey, look at it now, we're back to what we had before. But that is besides the point.Albany cares not of us, and we should care not of Albany. Its about time the people of Northern New York gave Albany and that blind bastard who runs it the middle finger, we should not be a part of New York State, because the only thing Albany cares about is what is below the beltline (The I90 Thruway). They are slaves to their masters in NYC, and we all suffer for the rich and spoiled citizens of that city, with the high taxes. Its about time for NNY to remove itself from NY State, I don't care how, call us a Territory or make us the 51st State but unless something is done about this region, we're going to die, thanks to Albany. We need to run under our own taxes, standards and regulations due to our geographical position, we suffer for everyone else down state, and its not right.I support this 4 lane highway but I'm not one of these people who think its going to be the magical fix that makes Industry come screaming back to the region, it won't. It'll create an economic boost for maybe a decade, while its being built. After that, it'll be a pretty dead highway while people wizz 90 from Watertown to Plattsburgh and ignore the meat in the middle. But I agree with others, use the money to improve Route 11, there is plenty that can be done to reduce the problems, and I mean in the end the only problem with Route 11 is Gov', Canton, Potsdam and Malone. You people ever drive the rest of it, pretty damn quiet.If we are to do anything, we should be investing in our railroad system. I mean come on, anyone watch CNN and notice all the commericals promoting using trains. I know people who work the rails in this area, and they said there are some pretty horrific areas, places trains can only do 10 mph because of track condition. We've torn most of it up, we need to preserve and restore what is left of the railroads. A somewhat high speed rail between Watertown and Plattsburgh would do wonders, more 'green' since its one train pulling countless items. And I say this as the mortal enemy of the railroad, aka a trucker.In short, screw Albany and screw anyone who isn't from this area who wants to give their opinion on how we should do things or fix our economy, they don't know jack.
Downstate taxes are huge. many people retire from a downstate career and move to the NC for the quality of life and lower taxes. I have the feeling the westchesters of the state are skewing the data.
There's an idea let's market ourselves as a retirement location. Quality of life and the like. With that you would not need to spend tons on roads and such. Retired, no place to go in a hurry.
Anon 2:37. With all the second home development in and around some NC towns I think the "marketing" may be working just fine.
Second home development is coming along nicely but we need middle of the road renovations in towns without upscale(more midscale) amminities. For retirees to sell there high tax area homes and move to the NC.
mervel,You're link doesn't work. Not to long ago we had the highest tax burden, so I guess we're making progress!I've never been to northern Maine but i've often heard nny compared to it. Were does all the tax revenue go? That is a good question. All of the teachers, state, and local government employees who retiree with full health benefits at age 55- and for police and firefighters at age 40-and then move down south, to escape the "high taxes". Some work massive amounts of overtime in their final years of service so that they can get a huge pension. How about requiring retired government employees to live in the state or forfeit their pension? And how about rewarding overtime on a lottery system instead of by seniority? And why is the Medicaid program so darn expensive? No one seems to be able to answer that one. And why so much unnecessary red tape?dave,Remember all of the hidden taxes and surcharges NY likes to levy on cell phone bills, utility bills, health premiums, etc. Also, school taxes vary greatly, even within NNY. Web/Old Forge, for example, is known for having very low school taxes due to its substantial commerical district, many seasonal residents, and small student population.
I think the future is in our natural resources that cannot be easily replicated in other places.The Adirondacks themselves, hydro power, wind power, organic micro farming, and yes a concentration of good little colleges. But as long as we have extremely high property tax rates (once again some of the highest in the nation), we are not ever going to really attract retirees. We also have to admit and address the deep issue of generational poverty which plague the North Country.
I believe the state has already changed the retirement system for future retirees
Paul,Yes, similar property values in our case. But the point you make about services is a good one. While our taxes did go down by moving here from out of state, I assume the services we have available to us also did. Although, if pressed I am not sure I could name them.
Dave,I own several houses in NY. The one that really gets me is a second home I own in the Adirondacks. It is a boat access property so I have no street, I have no sewer, I have no water, I have no garbage, I have no emergency services (to speak of), my kids do not go to the schools and yet I still have a very high tax rate. I just don't get it. It is amazing. I don't mind paying it just doesn't seem right that I get nothing in return.
Mervel and others are very quick to dismiss the benefits of NYS. We may have high taxes, but we are a high service state. Town roads have been paved in NNY that would remain gravel in comparable areas to the east. And let me tell you you can make up the diff. in saved taxes in car repairs from driving on dirt roads. Beating up on our schools is easy and people do it all the time, but I will take our schools over NC and other places any day. It is easy to retire to the Carolinas with their poor schools once your kids' future is no longer on the line. NYS remains a wealthy state, so much so that we send billions more in federal taxes than we receive back–something like $90B. Getting even a tenth of that back would cover the current state deficit. New York's vitality is being drained by poor states on the dole. Retired.NYS employees pay in for their health insurance or receive a credit for unused sick time.
Did you buy the second home on the adk waterfront and if so are you assessed at that value or more? I have seen people pay huge sums, tear down the camp that is there build something new and then complain about their tax bill. I believe if you pay a huge sum then the tax bill comes with it but don't comp to your neighbor
Joshua here.Frankly, I really do not care what an NYU professor has to say about upstate New York. I spent 18 years living in and around NYC and still go back for about a week every other year or so. What they know about upstate is practically nothing. That is especially true of the North Country. Except for skiers and people lucky enough to have spent their childhood summers at Adirondack summer camps, they think Canada not very far from Lake George. You meet the occasional person who went to college here but other than that, they are clueless. Not that means much, most people up here know very little about living in NYC or it suburbs. The point is that there is no profit in fighting about it. We need them as customers and we need their tax dollars to support our schools, the prisons, and state aid to local government. The real question is what can we do for ourselves? This is not a solution from the left or the right. It is just where pragmatism has leaded me after thinking about it for a couple of years and finding out what people have done elsewhere in rural America. What needs to be done is a restructuring of government on the local level. The structure that we use is a relic of the nineteenth century and we have had very little real change in 100 years. Why do we have 17 school districts? Some of these districts are very small and unable to achieve anything like efficiency of scale. These districts are expensive on a per student basis. This is especially true in terms of administrative costs and purchasing. There have been some attempts to use BOCES to combine positions, services, and purchasing but those efforts and subsequent savings are but a shadow of what real re-structuring would bring. A countywide district, such as exists in most states, would produce millions in savings and would serve the needs of students much better than the current system. After an initial period of increased investment to make the change, I believe the long-term savings to the local taxpayers and the State would be substantial. I believe that educational opportunities will improve students of the smaller schools. I believe labor relations, which have been hitting new lows in the county, would also improve. The cost of supplies, food, equipment, fuel for heating, fuel for transportation, electricity and outside professional services would be less if there was one large bid that attracted a lot of proffers. I will have to submit this in two parts because of the size of the file.