Majority of New Yorkers supports right to build Islamic Center in downtown Manhattan
A new poll from Siena reveals mixed feelings among New Yorkers about the proposed construction of an Islamic Center two blocks from the World Trade Center.
The issue certainly grabbed people’s attention. According to the poll, 75 percent of voters across the state are following media reports on the Cordoba House or Park51 project.
63% oppose it, 27% support it.
Siena pollster Steve Greenberg:
Voters, however, can clearly distinguish their personal view on whether the community center and mosque should be built near Ground Zero from their opinion on whether the developers have a Constitutional right to build the Cordoba House there.
Nearly 2/3 of those polled – 64 percent – said the developers have a right to build the Islamic Center. However, 28 percent said the developers don’t have that right.
Again, Steve Greenberg:
Even a majority of those who oppose building the mosque agree by a margin of 51-42 percent that they have the right to build it.
This last figure may be the most telling. It’s rare that a poll reveals nuance – especially in a debate as emotional as this.
Siena also asked about the political ramifications of the debate over the Islamic Center – specifically for gubernatorial candidates Cuomo, Lazio and Paladino:
Among respondents, 22 percent said each candidate’s position will have a major effect on their vote; 37 percent said it will have some effect and 39 percent said it will have no effect.
Greenberg says:
Of the 22 percent of voters who say the candidates’ position will have a major effect on their vote, opposition to the proposed mosque dwarfs support 92-7 percent. Among those voters, Cuomo currently has the support of 38 percent, compared to 33 percent who support Lazio and 17 percent who support Paladino.
I agree with that. It’s not LEGALLY wrong. It’s insensitive wrong.
That is what the poll says.
This debate is a huge waste of time and money. No wonder this country is in a recession.
I’m with Paul. This is all a distraction from something else. Just what is it? I’ll bet we find out the hard way.
I noticed on CNN the wife of the Imam of this mosque felt compelled write an email to CNN assuring them that they reject extremism, intolerance and violence etc. I was thinking why should she have to say that? The limits of religious freedom would allow for both extremism and intolerance. What is the litmus test now for “acceptable” religious beliefs? Are we going down the road of “good” Muslims versus the “bad” Muslims? Many people in today’s modern world claim that traditional Christianity is intolerant; in fact any mention of sin itself is seen as a form of intolerance. How far do we go here?
If we allow Mosques in the US to be built which we must do, what they actually teach and believe is none of the State’s business.
Was David Koresh the leader of a religion? I assume the Gov’t was investigating Koresh? When should the Gov’t investigate in this era of homeland security? Just a question. Not siding with anybody.
63% oppose building it, that’s what the headline should say, within 1% of the same number that agree they have the right to build it. It’s within their right to build it, yes, just as it’s within the right of the Aryan Nation to build a center dedicated to white supremacy near a school, the KKK a museum dedicated to the “glories” of segregation near a black church or NAMBLA to build a center near a YMCA or pre-school. But, as with this Cordoba Center, it would be both insensitive and in poor taste to do so.
Liberty should not be compromised by insensitive wrongs – not in the United States of America.
I’m glad most Americans believe in the Constitution and American values.
Yes Koresh was a minister of the Branch Davidians. They freely built their compound-Church. Problems started when it was found that he was abusing children and illegally stockpiling weapons. Even here though there were question about what the government did in reaction to his group.
Bret do you think the KKK is worried about being in poor taste or insensitive?
Anyway I just don’t like the idea that when a Mosque is okay to be built that they additionally feel the need to show or prove that they will practice the “right” kind of Islam. I am thinking of myself here, not that I care about Islam, I don’t.
Bret: One question I haven’t been able to get an answer about from mosque/community center opponents is this.
How far away from Ground Zero would be required for this project to be acceptable? What distance quota would be politically correct?
the aryan nation, the kkk and nambla. as with betty’s recent comment, to have even hinted at comparing islam to them smacks of exactly the kind of bigotry that brian has been talking about.
If I were not to vote for a candidate, based upon how they stand on just one issue, I would never vote for anyone.
One issue voting is just plain stupid.
Well Islam will not allow women to worship with men, they don’t allow female’s to be an Imam, they are against gay marriage and view homosexuality and sex outside of marriage as a sin, wait that sounds kind of like my Church, hate group? So you see we need to not get into what they believe. There are no unacceptable religious beliefs in this country. Even IF this group of Muslims were very conservative and extremist Muslims; that is none of our business.
Mervel, no I don’t and I don’t think Islam is either.
Brian, I would say the people who really should be asked are the families of the victims of 9/11. Ask the firefighters and cops and EMS workers who lost friends and family there, ask the people who fled the Towers and watched their co-workers die. Ask he families of the people who had the choice to jump or burn.
For me, I’d say 6-8 blocks at least.
HT- That’s really cool, you figured out how to make your letters appear in color. The rest of your post is totally uncool. If having strong emotions about a religion/political entity that has declared all non-believers must convert or die bothers you and makes me a bigot, well, that’s just too bad for me. I wonder how NAMBLA feels about mutilating female genitalia?……..
Not to worry gang! Nancy Pelosi has decided anyone who opposes the mosque being built needs to be investigated!!! No need to investigate who’s funding the mosque, that would be insensitive, but those ignorant louts that oppose the mosque should…….wait, hey, that’s funny, there’s a black helicopter landing on my field…..what in the w………………………..
If a religion does not act in accordance with our laws, then what should happen? If a gov’t entity finds out you have $50,000 in your bank account and you spend $10000 should the gov’t be made aware of it? Where does privacy end and homeland security begin?
Guess who has joined the squawkers? Howard Dean. He calls the proposed Islamic center :”…a real affront to people who’ve lost their lives — including Muslims.”
This posturing by our so-called leaders is pathetic and repugnant. It pains me to think that I once believed in Dean’s integrity.
bret, do you think that those directly affected by 9/11 should have say over all zoning and permit issues within 6-8 blocks of ground zero, or does that only pertain to non-christian religious organizations that had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks?
as for this bigotry business, let me first say i honestly don’t think you’re a bigot. it certainly happens that people who are non-bigots overall sometimes say bigoted things, but i’m not even sure if your comparison rises to that level — i mean, it’s not good, but that’s why i only said it smacks of bigotry, as a bit of a hedge.
and your new remarks about islam continue to be not good. what do you mean by “religious/political entity”? do you mean that the cordoba house is a political entity? do you mean that the whole body of islam is a political entity, and you’re just illegitimately conflating all of islam with the cordoba house?
and with this forced conversion business, well what’s the source of that? is that the kind of theology practiced by the cordoba house? or does the cordoba house engage in or advocate for genital mutilation?
or are you picking out the most heinous, vile aspects of the most extreme elements of islam and imparting them to the whole religion? that would kind of smack of bigotry too.
Thought this would be of interest to readers.
Since September 2001 I have maintained the “9/11 list-serv” which distributes daily e-mails containing newspaper articles and other relevant information re: 9/11 issues of interest to 9/11 families, 9/11 organizations and interested individuals.
The 9/11 List-serv archives can be accessed at http://groups.google.com/group/911-list-serv
If you would like to ‘subscribe’ to this free news service – send an e-mail to [email protected] with the word “subscribe” in the subject box.
Arnie
“Not to worry gang! Nancy Pelosi has decided anyone who opposes the mosque being built needs to be investigated!!!”
You handily failed to mention that in the same article, she called for an investigation into who is funding the mosque, too.
Link to the AP brief referenced by Bret:
http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=13008517
HT, that’s not what I said. (Gee I wish this forum had the “quote” feature, it’d make things a lot easier). I was asked what I thought the “correct” distance would be. I believe the people I mentioned should be the ones to really ask. No, not about every zoning issue or permit, but about this subject they would seem to be the ones with the most important input. But since it’s private property and since being politically correct is more important than the feelings or concerns of our citizens affected by 9/11…well, it’s going to be built.
The Islamic religion is more than just a religion. It’s a form of government, or manages to make itself part of government. The Imans (sp?) seem to have more say than the gov’t itself. The Ayatollah appears to be the actual ruler/religious head. That’s not something that we talk about, in fact it’s rarely mentioned.
Look at my post in the other entry about the symbolism of “Codoba” in the Islamic world. Just as Bush was advised not to use the word “crusade” regarding our fight with the Taliban because of the symbolism it invokes, Cordobas historical/religious symbolism is inescapable. Why does anyone even try and deny that?
Forced conversion- http://www.scribd.com/doc/17694768/Forced-conversion-andor-submission-in-Islam
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/verses.htm
Judge for yourself. The sad part is Muslim, Christian and Jew all worship the same God. Only one religion demands it’s members make war upon those of a different mind.
When people speak of the Catholic Church critically they bring up sexual abuse, the Inquisition, the stolen wealth, the improper things the church has done. If it’s the LDS they bring up the abuse, the plural marriages to underage and unwilling girls. If it’s the more fundamentalist churches then the parents who deny medical care to their kids, the snakes and faith healing, the hardcore line in the sand they take regarding salvation. All these things are valid concerns or issues and by your standard any talk of them would be bigoted, would it not?
I don’t like to think I’m bigoted. I have my issues as everyone does. The examples I used were chosen for their extremism value, I don’t think that makes me bigoted. Try these instead- An abortion clinic being built near a Catholic Church, a bar being built near an AA center, a sex shop or head shop being built near a school. Legal, yes. In poor taste, insensitive? Most certainly.
Where do you draw the line between strong feelings of disagreement with a religion, a group of people, a nation or government and bigotry, prejudice, xenophobia or treason?
Actually Chris this is the article I referenced- http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2010/aug/17/audio-rep-pelosi-calls-investigation-wtc-mosque-op/
And this is the excerpt I based my “no need to look into the funding of the mosque” statement on- Calls to investigate the funding for those proposing the $100 million “Cordoba House” have fallen on deaf ears, though, as New York’s Mayor Mike Bloomberg has described such an investigation as “un-American.”
It amazes me Bret continues to provide one side of a story. Bret says Nancy Pelosi has decided anyone who opposes the mosque being built needs to be investigated!!! No need to investigate who’s funding the mosque, that would be insensitive“
It’s easy enough to say what Sen. Pelosi actually said. Here’s what Politico reported:
“I support the statement made by the Interfaith Alliance, that ‘We agree with the ADL that there is a need for transparency about who is funding the effort to build this Islamic center,’” according to Pelosi’s statement, quoting the Alliance’s position. “’At the same time, we should also ask who is funding the attacks against the construction of the center.’”
Bret is so blinded with anger, his eyes just can’t seem to see the first sentence. Of course if you only read conservative blogs or listen to FOX news (now a self-admitted arm of the Republican party) you aren’t even going to see the entire statement mentioned.
This is just like the “half-of-the-story” that Bret tried to spread about the poor Greek Church that the evil government is preventing from being rebuilt.
As for the absurd 4-6 block mosque-free “perimeter” that Bret proposes, I guess that means the Masjid Manhattan mosque on Warren St. will need to be torn down.
And please, stop with the fake concern, “ask the firefighters, cops and EMS workers…” Where was the conservative concern for these workers when Congress was recently attempting to ensure those injured workers get healthcare (and yes, I am aware of the Republican arguments about the funding of the bill)?
And yes, like many evil libruls, I also know how to make words blue, italic and even bold.
Horrible headline shows biased
So, since the election of president Obama, the new code word for ‘UPITTY’, is ‘ARROGANT. Now, I see, ‘arrogant’ has a companion word in the euphemistic lexicon for “we couldn’t find any way to legally strip your rights away”, “INSENSITIIVE”! This seems to be the way of telling someone that they shouldn’t exercise their constitutional rights. Talk about ARROGANT! Anytime an individual or group exercises their individual rights, toes are going to be stepped on. The authors of the constitution understood that, which is why they codified the Bill Of Rights. They saw the need to guarantee individual rights in the face of ‘tyrannical majorities’ that would otherwise prevent legal activities through the use of coercion. Every time I hear this code phrase, “it’s legal, but it’s INSENSITIVE”, I have to shake my hand and use the not-so-codified term, HYPOCRITE!
Was the President being insensitive(apparently a hypocrite) when he said he would not comment on the wisdom of building the mosque on the site?
Bret, there is no more unanimity among 9/11 families on the mosque project than among the general public. Should they also get a veto over the strip club nearby?
PNElba: regarding your earlier comment about me not noticing the sarcasm that this controversy is not about Islam, I actually did notice the sarcasm. I was just pointing out that this is really all about politics, about venal politicians light years behind in the polls desperately seeking something that will get people to pay attention to them. And the national right-wing media businesspeople divas seizing upon this to inflame their customers. Muslims are the scapegoat of the month. Last month it was gays. The month before it was Latinos. I’m sure they’ll find someone different next month. Hysteria will ease up on the Muslims once the new scapegoat is found… at least until the bigots have batted around and return to the Muslims’ spot in the order.
And Bret, how do you explain the hysterical opposition to mosque/community center projects in places like Wisconsin, Florida and southern California? Do 9/11 families have a veto on freedom of religion and private property rights everywhere in the country?
Brett 8/18/10 – SHould we also ask the families of Muslims who were killed at Ground Zero how they feel about being demonized and discriminated against over building a community center that can’t even be seen form Ground Zero? How is it ok to have porn shops, liquor stores, massage parlors, adult book stores and strip joints in similar proximity to this Hallowed Ground, but the 3rd largest religion in the world shouldn’t build a community center because it’s in bad taste? What I hear a lot of people saying is, “They have the legal right to build it, but we’re going to make sure that they know that we damn well don’t want them there”. E Pluribus Unum?
Holy crap guys, get a grip on reality here, wouldya?
Brian, what business it anything that happens anywhere of ours, unless it’s in our backyard? People are going to express their opinions on the mosque, on illegal aliens, on gay marriage, on the spill on food safety, on lots of stuff. If we follow your apparent line of reasoning what right do we have to express our opinion of labor issues in China, the treatment of children in Africa or the drug trade in South America? For that matter, what right do we have to an opinion at all? Lets try and remain realistic here, eh? I never said they get a veto, I said that’s who should have INPUT. Dang, and you guys accuse me of only reading the first line?
PNElba- I DID provide the link with both sides of the story and in my 9:05AM post noted it was Bloomberg who stated looking into the mosque funding was un-American. And please, you peaked my curiosity, provide the basis for your statement that Fox news in the “self admitted” arm of the Republican party. Since I don;t watch Fox I’m blissfully unaware they said that. Please explain what you mean. If it’s that garbage about Foxs parent company giving the NRG a mess of money then you’re statement makes little sense since the parent companies owner Rupert Murdock has been a big Democrat supporter for years, especially of Hillarys. So please explain what you mean.
BTW- if there’s already a mosque in the area, why do they need another one? Kinda overkill, isn’t it? I mean, do they really NEED another one? Oh, and please tell e the BoR doesn’t discuss NEED, that’ll come in handy during the next anti gun diatribe here.
And one more thing- Don’t you EVER give me a line about FAKE CONCERN for the firefighters, cops and ems workers you arrogant jerk! I was THERE picking pieces of people up off the ground and working beside those guys and breathing in the same dust and smell of burnt, decaying bodies as they were. You can shove that remark in your ear.
This August’s GOP hissy fit* is a classic of the genre!
*A hissy fit is a totally irrelevant “story” ginned up to make people angry and feel contempt for someone else, usually foreign, foreign-“ish” or liberal–or all three.
We should all be proud of ourselves, and our country.
This thread now looks like “The Monsters are Due on Maple Street”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GE9-YWh1Hc&feature=related
(Be careful out there, Pete)
Brian, I agree with your sentiment. I was just pointing out that Murdock (NY Post) got the initial story from an anti-Islam blogger. It was about religion when it started. It had to descend into more of a political question because of the obvious issue of religious bigotry.
There is a difference between a political donation from an individual (Murdoch) and a company (although companies have recently been given personhood). But what I meant to say is that Fox News is an arm of the Republican party.
And Bret, all I can say is “if it looks like a duck…..” etc. You also have to admit that you can be a bit on the arrogant side too.
The good thing about this story is, lots of people are in Pakistan are dying, and nobody cares.
Good work, hissy fit!
Please, no personal attacks here.
This isn’t the place for calling people names.
I don’t know where that place is, but for many it appears to be behind the steering wheel when the driver believes the windows are rolled up.
Looking back over the In Box debate on the three posts on downtown Manhattan’s proposed Islamic center, I think it’s been a very interesting conversation – almost in its entirety.
I’ve certainly had my perspective widened.
Yes, widened enough to question if that Islamic center is really something we should be talking about.
But, on the whole, I’m glad everyone’s still talking.
Just stop the personal insults.
Spit balls are still cool, though. It will, of course, be up to you to wipe clean your own computer screen.
-Jonathan, NCPR
OMG. I just looked up “Cordoba,” and it is indeed terrifying.
Khaaaaan!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIL3fbGbU2o&feature=related
PNElba- I would never question your concern or compassion or imply you were a liar only using an event to boost your cause or ego. The insult you gave to me is beyond any line anyone here has crossed before that I can recall. Character and honor may not not mean much these days to most people, but it still counts with a few of us.
Bret, I regret the example I used but I don’t apologize. I think it is an accurate depiction of many Republicans and conservatives, Rudy Guliano being a perfect example.
But please look at some of your own words, even in the above post. “Character and honor may not not mean much these days to most people….”. Where is your evidence that character and honor may not mean much to mostpeople these days? Where is your evidence that people that post on these pages are always disparaging Christianity? Talk about boosting your cause and ego (without any evidence).
Liberals are notorius for not fighting back against the far right. I am one liberal that is tired of being called unpatriotic, a nazi, a communist, a fascist, a socialist, America-hating, Christian-hating and god-hating. I’m not going to turn the other cheek and I’m not going to stop fighting for what I believe and think is right. I support your right to do the same, except I don’t believe you are unpatriotic, a nazi, a communist or a socialist.
You are beneath contempt.
What is interesting is that when we look at people that are often kind of being put down by some on the far right, i.e. Muslims, illegal Latin American immigrants, I think the right is missing a great opportunity.
Both of these groups are socially conservative. You will see opposition to things like gay marriage, abortion, they are both very religious peoples as a group, they believe in marriage and large families, they will support religious freedom, I think there is some opportunity to work together with conservative Christians who are already here to impact our society in a positive way.
Mervel,
It’s more fun to hate em. Gets a bigger road-rage rush out of people stuck in traffic listening to talk radio.
Good point.