Morning Read: Attorney General accuses North Country town of discrimination
State Attorney General Eric Schneiderman is urging the town of Jackson, in Washington County, to drop a local ordinance requiring that all official business be conducted in English.
The English-only rule is “discriminatory and violates the First Amendment” according to Schneiderman, as reported in the Albany Times-Union.
The English-only law was adopted about a year ago in action following approval of similar measures in the neighboring communities of Easton and Argyle.
In her letter to Jackson Town Supervisor Alan Brown, [Janet Sabel, executive deputy attorney general for social justice] said the law discriminates against those who speak no English and could deter people from reporting crimes, seeking medical care or getting access to services and benefits.
Additionally, Sabel said the law violates the U.S. Constitution’s Equal Protection Clause. About 1,700 people live in Jackson.
Town officials plan to revisit the issue at a public hearing next month.
So what do you think? Are English-only laws a legitimate way to insure that Americans share a common tongue, at least for our official government business? Or is this a form of discrimination?
As always, your comments welcome.
Tags: politics
I know I’m going to take some heat for my opinion on this issue, but I’m going to come out in support of the town. In areas where the primary language is English, I see nothing wrong with laws that dictate that it is the “official” language of the area. The constitutionality of declaring an official language at the federal level is muddy. Now, in an area where there is a significant amount of non-English speakers, I could see where there is some issues with this. And as for “detering people from reporting crimes, seeking medical care, or getting access to services and benefits,” if those are defined as “Official Business” in this law, then whoever wrote this potential law needs to have a few screws checked in their head.
Language. Serious Business.
Just my $4.12, since thats about what a gallon of gas costs now and 2 cents can’t buy anything.
I don’t think it has to be a law to force people to speak English. I do strongly believe though that NO accommodation should be made for those who can’t speak English.
So yeah you can speak to government officials in French or Spanish but those officials are under no obligation to try to understand you, if they do happen to speak french or Chinese or Spanish, great but most of the time they won’t and that would be your problem as the one speaking a language that is not the standard language of the US, which is English.
We have the right to speak however we want, but we don’t have the right to force society to understand what we are saying.
I think it depends on how you define “official business”. If people are allowed to conduct affairs that should be open to the public in language other than English it could be a violation of “open government” since most people would not understand what was being done.
I think the notion that non-English speakers would be prevented from reporting crimes is a red herring. Odds are they would need a translator to do so anyway unless we require all our authorities to learn multiple languages.
1 form in English. It costs less than having 15 forms for 15 different languages.
muy incredible. when in rome, best to learn latin.
You all should take a trip up to Quebec where they are rather militaristic about the use of French, despite the fact that they all know English and there are a lot of people who don’t speak French. They don’t even put English on their traffic signs right across the border. Obnoxious!
They should have a law that everyone in Washington County learn a second-language. This would improve the citizenry, rather than dumbing them down.
De acuerdo?
there it is. a new cottage industry for the Adirondacks– translation services for visiting, non-english speaking, farm workers. maybe one of the requirements for a visa should be a tiny if not comprehensive understanding of the laguage of the country visited.
We are completely unable to cater to any foreign travelers in the Adirondacks, thus potentially missing a huge market-potential.
Weak Dollar makes travel here increasingly possible and attractive.
I don’t see any point in an English Only law or any official language law.
We survived not having any such law when most people coming to this country spoke French, German, Spanish, Polish or Italian. It doesn’t take long before they decide they better learn English to make it here.
My grandparents spoke German and so did their children until it was nearing the time to go to school. My grandmother then laid down the law and before you knew, all were speaking English.
As time went buy, the children who began life speaking German soon forgot the language.
The last few weeks of my grandmother’s life, she went back to speaking German and no one in the family, even those who had started life by speaking German, knew what her last words were.
Official language laws are bigotry laws.
I always find it funny when I’m driving through the Adirondacks listening to NCPR and there’s the host of the Beat Authority (David Sommerstein?) busting out his Spanish as though NCPR has a significant audience that only speaks Spanish.
I guess I don’t understand what an english only language law does? How is it different if you don’t have an english only language law?
I mean if a french speaker shows up at dmv right now in my county which does not have an english only language law, no one is going to understand them and there are no french forms. However they can speak away in French all they want and if they fill out the forms in French they will not be served. So I guess I don’t know what these laws are about?
When the flap over this silliness broke last year, I used US Census data to calculate the approximate number of Hispanics in the town of Jackson. If I remember correctly, the answer was 6.
Even the town board member who sponsored the law admitted that it wasn’t in response to any actual problem the town was having. He just wanted to grandstand.
Seriously, this is an issue in Washington county! You gotta be kidding me. Is this one of those April fools stories?
Mervel said: “So I guess I don’t know what these laws are about?”
Out west anyway, they’re pretty much about ostracising Mexicans. The law doesn’t make any difference, but makes the guy who makes the law feel superior, and allows him to vent anger at the guy doing jobs his kids won’t do.
Well, my $4.12 will offend some too I suppose.
This is far less about control of a minority population or ostracizing an ethnic group than it is about drawing a line at catering to every minor language or dialect in the world. In fact it’s entirely about that. I can guarantee that anyone without a firm grasp of English will be provided a translator should they need to report a crime or anything else, that’s a strawman for sure. But there’s no need for signage in multiple languages or Swahili or Liki, Ongota, Kiazana or Kilngon on every gov’t form. It’s a matter of common sense and protection from lawsuits for failing to provide same.
My family all spoke French or Gaelic and they learned English. I don’t see the problem.
An English only law in the Adirondacks is indeed simply grandstanding and is, more than that, embarrassing. Sad that it takes official action from the AG to make it go away.
Question. How long has the NYS been providing instructions in multiple languages? If Pete’s grandmother had to fill out the form in English, maybe that’s why she was so adamant in requiring her children to learn it?
Existence of a corporate-run, propaganda-managed democracy could not be more evident with sectors of our population enjoying great privilege, while middle and lower classes of people sink farther into poverty and genuine misery. More and more become homeless while a superfluous population is confined in slums or dismissed to government’s expanding prison system which is undergoing tremendous pressure to privatize by corporate lobbyists.
What are the opportunities present in a society where the government operates for the benefit of the top one percent and their special interests, creating oppressive laws for minorities and immigrants?
Why a law to protect English in a country of predominantly English speaking people? It’s simple; it’s being done intentionally to punish non-white, non English-speaking peoples coming to America.
Throwing taxpayer dollars at this form of elitism puzzles me. Does this help people losing their homes and jobs or punish the banking industry for predatory scheming?
Sandwich,
My grandmother was just being realistic. There weren’t any plans to move back to Europe.
She learned to read and write by reading what she called “the funny papers.”
No insult intended. My apologies if that’s the way it was received.
So the law has no real impact beyond making a point? I don’t really even see how the law is punishing anyone as it would not change anything?
amare, using your logic, the government should like to make it easier for non-english, non-white peoples to function in this country. what good are slaves tha can’t understand the masters orders, or a master who doesn’t understand what the slaves are planning.
language barriers are no different than a physical barrier- say like a fence.
i say will rodgers had it right on. good fences make good neighbors. those who want to straddle it can deal with the consequences.
solidago, i find it hillarious only second to annoying when i hear sommerstein roll his “r’s” and tilda his “n’s”.
it’s like i’m back in queens for crist sake.
The basic question is, are we a nation of decent people or are we a nation of jerks?
the two things may not be mutually exclusive, knuck
Small town, pinheaded fear of the boogie man is where this stuff comes from. Washington county survived for a long time without this offensive law, they don’t forsee having a problem, and yet they just HAD to open their stupid collective mouth and say something rude. Hopefully they said it in English, so as not to offend the neighbors.
The point isn’t that people aren’t allowed to speak another language. The point is that they have to learn to speak English.
The point isn’t that Americans shouldn’t learn another language. The point is that people that live here need to learn to speak OUR language.
If I were one of those people who was always talking about what the Founding Fathers did I might list the number of languages that were spoken in the original colonies, like Swedish, Pennsylvania Dutch, Dutch, French, numerous Indian languages, some African languages and (if you include places that later became Florida or Louisiana) Spanish, along with English. So if I were one of those kind of people I might say that those are ALL OUR language. But I’m not that kind of guy.
I don’t care who learns English or not. However I wouldn’t hire someone who didn’t speak English and of course I should never be forced to. Certainly if you want to be successful in this country you will learn English. If you want to be successful in France you will learn French.
I do think it is not responsible to act as if someone can live in this country and do well and not speak English, this is a lie and may hurt many immigrants. Making ourselves feel better about how nice we are does not help those people. However, passing a law will not help, focusing on how best to teach new immigrants English would though.
So knucklehead why don’t you go find out how far that African language or dutch is going to get you in the American job market of today without being able to speak English. How many Dutch only people who can’t speak English do you employ? Come on people in this country need to learn to speak English it is the only humane option for them and it is unfair to act like it is not.
You completely miss the point Mervel. This is a free country and people are free to speak any language they want. At the founding of this nation many in Washington County spoke Dutch and there were many Dutch speakers in the Hudson Valley well into the 20th Century. Was it a threat to our democracy? No.
These English only laws are being promoted by people who prey on fear, fear of the “other”. Fear makes people do dumb things and this law was one of them.
You are usually a pretty sensible person but in this case your argument is nonsense. This law was not about helping people find jobs, it was purportedly about saving the town money when all the non-English speakers showed up at town hall and demanded that all the town documents be translated for them into Spanish, or Mandarin or Farsi, something that has NEVER happened and likely never will.
The fact is that immigrants always learn the dominant language on their own, as you point out–to find work. But often it takes a generation. It is very common in more urban areas to see people in government offices with their young children along to help translate. That has been happening for decades. Why is it different now?
There is no need for legislation. I would bet that you are, in most circumstances, someone who doesn’t like laws that are unnecessary. What is it about this law?
khl, “You completely miss the point Mervel. This is a free country and people are free to speak any language they want.”
I am missing your point, apparently. No one is denying anyone the ability to speak another language.
I think the banner “English only” is being too loosely applied.
Everyone should be free to speak any language, and if they live and work here, English, as well.
A better way to say, “English Only” in my opinion is:
English is the ONLY language you are required to learn. The rest are your choice, and your freedom.
We don’t want to live in a country where Dutch is a requirement.
Sandwich,
No insult taken. I was just adding more info.
the point of these laws that make English the official language is to codify anti-immigrant sentiment. these laws would be mean-spirited if there were more non-english speaking immigrants in the community, but there arent, so the laws are basically pointless. this is a nation of immigrants and generally people are perfectly capable of figuring out for themselves that they need to learn English.
this is a form of discrimination (to answer Brian’s last question).
Peter Hahn:
I agree with your point that we should not have to codify “English Only”.
I have first-hand knowledge of illegals on farms in St. Lawrence County who are investing in their own English language tutorials to better their chances for success on and off the farm.
I also believe we should make a front door for industrious workers in our midst to enter our society.
Knuck,
Yes we agree that there is no need for these laws.
They don’t do anything anyway except make someone feel like they did something and make another group of people feel good about opposing them and I am sure a lawyer and a not for profit advocacy group and some government money will be spent in getting rid of these stupid protest laws, which is all that they are.
My point was there should be no accommodation for other languages outside of English in public schools, or any other government funciton including police, fire etc. The same would go for private hiring etc. Now if people or instituttions want to voluntarily learn French or Spanish or Chinese that would be great. But we do no one any favors by acting as if you can live here successfully not speaking English, you can’t.
JDM – I also know illegals who invested a lot in English tutorials. The whole reason they are here is to make some money to send home, and its not too hard to figure out that learning English helps a lot.
“I have first-hand knowledge of illegals on farms in St. Lawrence County who are investing in their own English language tutorials to better their chances for success on and off the farm.”
Then what’s the problem English-only laws are trying to solve?
The answer: there isn’t one.
Generations of immigrants, including my ancestors, have come to America knowing little or no English. They have always learned English. Not always in a week… any foreign language is something that takes a long time to learn. Their motivation was not because of some English-only law because such laws have never really existed here until recently. Their motivation was that they knew English was the language required to get a job in this country.
Law enforcement has warned of one of the problems of English-only laws. If police officers are required to speak only English, then they cannot communicate with people who’s English is poor or nil… even if they are crime witnesses or vicitms. Who cares about crime prevention when pointless grandstanding is the real objective.
Umm… “… with people whose English is poor or nil.”
Didn’t want to be that black pot.
I think the problem is requiring the state, county, town to provide information in multiple languages. Translation services cost money and so does printing the multiple forms. I’ll concede that the courts probably will still need to provide translation (crimes don’t really have a language), but why should the DMV?
The good result of an English only (on the other hand) might be if lawmakers, judges and lawyers were required to write in plain English. And no Latin. That would be useful.
“Law enforcement has warned of one of the problems of English-only laws. If police officers are required to speak only English, then they cannot communicate with people who’s English is poor or nil… even if they are crime witnesses or vicitms. Who cares about crime prevention when pointless grandstanding is the real objective.”
Where did you come up with that strawman? Even 25 years back when I first started in law enforcement we translation books issued to us. And unlike your implication, there is no current requirement that nay local police be multi-lingual. There US Border Patrol, last I knew, required a working knowledge of Spanish. That’s of little help when dealing with Quebecois who can’t or won’t to speak Spanish or English, but such is life. There’s no law that police can only speak English”. Even the local ordinance in question says nothing about that.
Comon’ Brian, it’s about costs and catering to special interest groups nothing else.
yes Bret – the issue is cost/benefit. If there is a large community that speaks another language, it may be worth it to print some official things in that language. If there are just a few people,it probably isnt. But why make a law that you arent going to do that in a village that doesnt have a large community that speaks some other language? Whats the point?
Yes, KHL, many of our more educated citizens write in an English so convoluted it should be illegal. Meanwhile, many others — including many who make posts online (although not so much here) — express themselves so poorly that their parents or teachers or they themselves should be charged with aiding and abetting an assault on our native tongue. The loud assertions here that you cannot succeed in this country without mastering English, however, are demonstrably false. Have you ever heard Henry Kissinger speak English? More seriously, lots of first generation immigrants — Cubans in Florida, Chinese and Koreans in New York and many others from many other places — do not learn English and, yet, do succeed in this country. Their children learn the language, from growing up and going to school here. I think that’s probably the way it’s often been — the first generation doesn’t necessarily master English, or even learn it at all, often because they’re too busy working to succeed.
“… the first generation doesn’t necessarily master English, or even learn it at all, often because they’re too busy working to succeed.”
yes, there seems to be very little resistance to learn “money”, not in any language.
spent a summer in belize. official language is english, (left over from british) and official currency is belizian dollar, backed by u.s.(1 dollar u.s. = .50 cents bz.)with a picture of the queen on the bills–and not once did any of the predominate chineese grocery owners speak one word of english to me, but they sure got my change correct.
money the true universal laguage.
Peter, whats the point of most political statements? To set a line in the sand. That’s all this is. These guys are saying, ” Look, we’re not going to leave the door open to let someone make us print every Town document is 43 different languages and then sue us because we forgot Klingon.” Seems pretty clear cut to me.