Could Elizabeth Warren topple Hillary Clinton? Probably not.

Can Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren topple Hillary Rodham Clinton?

Can Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren topple Hillary Rodham Clinton?

In 2008, Hillary Rodham Clinton was almost as sure a bet as she is going into 2016.  The former first lady, US Senator, and later Secretary of State was beloved among rank-and-file Democrats.  Unlike Al Gore, who edged away from the legacy of Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton was happy to embrace his popularity and his centrist politics.

But in the end, she lost to Barack Obama.  And as we build toward the Democratic primary next year, a lot of progressives are suggesting that the same thing could happen again.  A candidate from the party’s left flank – Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders – could step in with a powerful populist message and claim the nomination.

I think that’s unlikely for a lot of reasons.  But the biggest flaw in that political calculation is that it badly misremembers what actually happened in 2008.  It gets wrong why Hillary lost to Barack.  And it turns out that fixing her clumsy strategy – her losing strategy – isn’t all that difficult.

Translation?  Hillary Clinton isn’t likely to fumble the ball on the goal line a second time.

What people remember, what actually happened

The memory that most people have of 2008 is of hope and change and Barack Obama’s soaring speeches.  And he did turn out to be a strong, powerful campaigner.  But that’s not how he won.  He won because early in the primary, Hillary Clinton’s team made a fatal strategic error.

She launched herself into the Democratic primary confident that she had built a solid team in the big Democratic states.  New York, her adopted home state, was a lock.  So was California.  She had also built a solid ground game in Florida, a state that Democrats dearly hoped to win in the general election.

And that all worked pretty much as planned.  Look at the map of Clinton’s eventual wins and it pretty much looks like a map of Democratic Party politics in the 21st century.  Massachusetts?  Check.  Michigan?  Check.  Pennsylvania?  Check.  Ohio?  Check.

It’s not that Obama didn’t win some Democratic states.   He did.  In every primary, the frontrunner drops a handful of states.  But what gave Obama the margin overall was a brilliant stealth campaign designed to pick up low-cost, often uncontested delegates in red-hot conservative states.

Obama’s red state strategy

As the primary results began to roll in through 2008, it became clearer and clearer that Obama was winning fewer popular votes from Democrats than Clinton, particularly in the states that would actually vote Democratic in November.

But by racking up small, chip-shot victories in places like Idaho, Kansas, North Dakota, Utah and Wyoming, the still largely-

This chart from Wikipedia illustrates how Obama won the Democratic primary, by capturing lots of small, red states and battling strategically for a handful of actual Democratic states.  Source:  Wikipedia http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Northwest-historian

This chart from Wikipedia illustrates how Obama won the Democratic primary, by capturing lots of small, red states and battling strategically for a handful of actual Democratic states. Source: Wikipedia http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Northwest-historian

unknown Senator from Illinois was socking away enough delegates to keep him in the game.

He also brilliantly deployed activists in states that used caucuses rather than actual primary votes to assign their delegates.  That meant he could pick up disproportionate numbers of delegates, when compared to his popularity, while spending relatively few campaign dollars.

A great illustration of how this worked came in Texas.  Clinton actually won that state’s primary pretty handily, by roughly a 51% to 47% margin. But after the complex mechanics of that state’s Democratic Party process had churned (Texas has a primary and caucuses), Obama actually emerged with more delegates, 99 to Clinton’s 94.

Click the graph at the right and you’ll get a visual sense of just how badly Clinton’s team was outplayed over and over.

It was a contest where Clinton’s strategists did everything right according to the old Democratic playbook, winning plenty of votes and winning the biggest states.  But they still couldn’t deliver a knock-out punch.

Obama’s plan eventually forced Clinton to campaign more and more aggressively.  She scrambled, belatedly, to try to win more small, conservative states.  She began making mistakes on the stump as the math turned against her.

The loss that finally forced her to concede?  It came in Montana, a state that Obama won handily in the primary, but which hasn’t voted for a Democratic president since 1992.

Brilliant politics, but could it happen again?

obamainoval_375It’s important to point out that Barack Obama didn’t cheat his way into the White House.  Rather, he exploited a muddly, byzantine Democratic primary system brilliantly, developing a ground game that was perfectly designed to squeeze as much advantage as possible from wins in states that most Democrats neglected, like Alaska and Oklahoma.

Meanwhile, his team focused their scant resources in a calculated bid to pick off a few actual Democratic states.  It was, in political terms, pure genius.

Even so, this long march strategy probably would have been impossible if Obama himself weren’t rooted in two significant Democratic states, Hawaii and Illinois, which he won without much effort. And it’s important to note that even with this “I’m playing chess and you’re playing checkers” ground game, Obama barely won.  It was a near thing.

So what does this say about Hillary in 2016?

It says that fixing her losing primary strategy is actually fairly easy.  There is no evidence that she had a flawed message or a broken political brand, or that she was an inadequate candidate on the stump.  Those are things that politicians struggle mightily to repair.

Clinton’s task is much easier.  Her team simply needs to organize a stronger primary effort – caucus supporters, local campaign staff, etc. – in half a dozen small, red states.  That will allow her to build on near-certain wins in California and New York in a way that won’t leave plenty of fertile territory in the Heartland for a well-organized insurgent.

Can someone beat Hillary in a head-to-head match-up?

SOURCE:  US STATE DEPARTMENT

SOURCE: US STATE DEPARTMENT

Without being able to borrow from Barack Obama’s ingenious red-state playbook, a progressive like Warren or Sanders will have to fight Hillary head-to-head.

They’ll have to battle to win at least one or two monster blue states like California, Illinois, Ohio or Pennsylvania.  (Warren might be able to count on a win in her home state of Massachusetts, but it’s hardly a sure thing.)

That kind of straight-up mano a mano strategy is far more expensive and complex and confrontational.  It’s also a fight that will be far more difficult to sustain after one or two big losses. And there will be far less time for an insurgent to hone a working message and develop a sense of momentum.

Sanders or Warren will have to get it right almost from the outset.  That’s a big contrast from Obama’s method, which allowed him months in which to build his war chest and grown his brand and name recognition.

The bottom line is that Hillary Rodham’s team was badly outsmarted eight years ago.  They were wildly over-confident.  If Clinton runs again, she’ll certainly be more wary, more thorough.  She won’t leave lots of poker chips lying on the table unclaimed.

Unless her opponents come up with a new edge, a cunning new Obama-style strategy, they’ll actually have win straight.  That means convincing a majority of Democrats that Hillary Rodham Clinton’s time has passed.  The party faithful will have to reject her outright.

Obama’s virtuoso campaign essentially allowed him to go around Clinton.   Her next challenger will have to go straight through her.  That kind of attack message will be painfully tricky, given Clinton’s deep roots and loyalty in the party’s base.

67 Comments on “Could Elizabeth Warren topple Hillary Clinton? Probably not.”

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  1. hermit thrush says:

    In 2008, Hillary Rodham Clinton was almost as sure a bet as she is going into 2016.

    big-time disagree. she’s a way, way, way better bet now than she was then.

  2. Ken Hall says:

    A major difference between Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth Warren is the wealthy donators far and away favor Hillary, who they see as someone who would continue to defend their right to the lion’s share of the wealth just as Barack has. They greatly fear Elizabeth’s ideas which are similar to the concepts FDR used to rein in the wealth inequalities which enabled the Great Depression and they especially fear she might promulgate her ideas into law as did FDR. Even if Elizabeth could match Barack’s approximately 54% first election small donor total I think her irritation factor with the uber rich would leave her under funded compared with Hillary.

  3. seszoo says:

    Would have too say I’d be more likely to vote for Ms Warren at this time , whereas Hillary’s out of the question completely. We’ve had enough of the Clintons and the Bushes and might as well throw Romney and all the other old has been same business as usual politicians in Washington. We need change and so far it doesn’t look good.

  4. Robert Cogan says:

    Whatever candidate started vaguely advocating DISENGAGEMENT from the Middle East Mess and possible CONTAINMENT to follow, would, if they could get their party behind it, have a large rhetorical advantage over other “me too” candidates. Disengagement worked in the Cold War & contributed to eventual defeat of USSR without nuclear war. The policy would be, while insisting on a strong defense of Americans at home, and continuing to support Israel, to cease all firing into Muslim lands, withdraw all our military from them and cease meddling in their internal affairs with support for their secular military “strong men.”

    Every “bipartisan” intervention we’ve made in the Middle East has been a snafu; together they made the Middle East FUBAR. We need a dose of (Judaic – Christian, if you will) HUMILITY and respect for the self-determination of the 1.6 billion Muslims who are majorities in 49 foreign countries.

  5. Al says:

    The key word is “probably”. Any probability less than 100% leaves room for an opponent, however improbable. The time is now for a woman to go to the White House. The grassroots support for a Elizabeth Warren candidacy is something I have not seen before. She has a significant non-zero probability of getting elected if she makes the decision to run this year.

  6. Michael Greer says:

    Like in 2008, we would be better served by Hillary being beaten by a Democrat, than a Republican. I will not vote for her because she is a Middle East war-hawk. A Republican in sheep’s clothing, with ideas that are twenty years stale, who, like Mitt Romney, is too old to be President…to old to be MY President. Look at the years it has put on Barack Obama.

  7. knuckleheadedliberal says:

    You forgot Obama’s 2008 secret weapon: Oprah.

  8. Kevin says:

    Even if she is not viable as a candidate for the nomination I would still want to see her run. She would pull the party back to the progressive side and keep the other candidates honest. Any ground she gains in the race would also gain her publicity, credibility, and political capital.

  9. Peter Hahn says:

    Good points Brian. Hillary also managed to connect with blue collar white voters last time in the primaries which Barack Obama never did (and still doesn’t). Im not sure Elizabeth Warren could either. She is a great voice for progressive values where she is. It would be a shame if she had to tone things down to win a national audience.

  10. The Democratic Party mantra in 2008 was “Hope and Change.” BY 2012 it was “Obama’s our best hope.” If Hillary Clinton becomes the party’s candidate in 2016 it will be “Abandon all hope.”

  11. BubbaNicholson says:

    Nothing could be more wrong with this analysis. The “chip shot” red state Democratic delegates were all planted by or drugged by the Plumbers with enflurane which cripples the will and causes prospective amnesia. Hillary Clinton could have forced down this George W. Bush evil, but in the end Hillary saw the amazing good that Obama’s presidency would do and has done for the whole people of this country. For once, the leadership of both parties agreed on the way forward. Also, the crisis was averted by God’s message to Hillary back in 1972, that she would have to be US Senator from New York (how she scoffed at that! She was from Illinois!) and US Secretary of State before becoming POTUSA. And we have God’s message to George W. Bush in May of 1971 to pass his baton to a Democratic President of African American descent to thank as well.
    So if some Cuban person republican death squad member asks you to sniff the strange odor of something without first taking a big whiff him or her self, shoot first and ask questions later! lol.

  12. bill shaver says:

    I say put them both on the ticket as prez & vice prez…because the party of no, never & nothings are a NASCAR RACE , still and will always be…a paraody of rickey bobby…they’lll win & their first order of buisness I can assure you will not be put up window dressing…but deal with real issues…strange coincidence though, the month they are sworn in january 2017…same month the sect 1332 of the ACA comes into being, thats the notwitstanding clause of the ACA….they’ll be either pushing a mandate to heavily fund medicare & opening it up to all….finnally on our way….then imigration, education & pension reforms……

  13. The Original Larry says:

    “The time is now for a woman to go to the White House.”

    Will we compound the mistakes of the last two elections by again electing a President for the most superficial of reasons? That’s a depressing thought.

  14. Pete Klein says:

    If I were to guess, Hillary will probably get the nomination.
    I further guess that is great if you are a Hillary supporter.
    But here is where there could be a problem. She could lose in the election if the Republicans come up with a decent candidate. She is not invincible. She has a lot of baggage and some of that baggage is her husband.

  15. Mr. Kent says:

    Regardless, we cannot afford another republican administration. They were a disaster domestically and globally and their platform has not changed. The neo cons and voodoo economists are still the driving force behind the republican party. It has taken eight years to undo the damage they did last time. Are we supposed to forget?
    Even now the Koch bought and paid for republicans want to “roll back” regulations and give wall street and the bankers the same tools they gave them during the last republican administration so they can wreck havoc on every working American.

  16. knuckleheadedliberal says:

    Bubba, I’m not sure any comment here has ever been Art, but you may have gotten there.

    the uphill battle ANY Democrat faces is that the electorate gets weary of one party in the presidency after 6 years or so. The most profound mistake that the electorate could make would be to elect a Republican who will almost surely get another shot at a Supreme Court Justice slot.
    That is probably the biggest issue of the last decade and will be for some years to come.

  17. Two Cents says:

    predictions: Romney will resurface as a vp candidate in exchange for his no run for pres promise.
    Hillary’s problem will be the same as jeb’s, too much of the same ole,same ole.
    and two women on the same ticket for pres and vp is just waaaay too radical for most americans.

    my wish would be an overhaul of our election process- the winner is pres, the looser is the vp and they can duke it out in the oval office before congress gets to log jam our country again.
    all of it to be sold as ppv tv to supplement health care.

    what ever happens PLEASE don’t let me see any of the a-hole that gave the repub response to the state of the union.
    I don’t even want to remember her name, I want to punch her.
    if ANYONE bought that crap, well god help us all.

  18. Mark says:

    Two cents
    Your comments perpetuate the Dema war on women.

  19. hermit thrush says:

    I don’t even want to remember her name, I want to punch her.

    if you want to complain about yet another republican sotu response where we’re spoken to like we’re in kindergarten, then have at it. if you want to criticize the content (or appalling lack thereof) in her speech, then go ahead. if you want to make jokes about bread bags and leavened footwear, then great! but there is absolutely no place whatsoever for casual talk about punching people in the face, or any sort of violence. i’m personally a democrat, and i don’t want any of that nonsense in my party.

  20. hermit thrush says:

    Will we compound the mistakes of the last two elections

    larry, did you sleep through the 00’s? the real mistakes were made in 2000 and 2004. going back to that would be the truly epic blunder.

  21. The Original Larry says:

    HT, I would accuse you of not undstanding my comment but you are far too clever for that. Not clever enough, however, to avoid falling back on Bush-bashing and ridicule when you have nothing of substance to say. I found your snide commentary about Sen. Ernst more offensive than the punch Two Cents posited. Stay classy, liberals!

  22. hermit thrush says:

    larry, you have this weird tic of getting greatly exercised about perceived snideness when it comes from others, but being totally oblivious to it in yourself. are you really going to tell us there’s nothing snide about your 10:52 comment?

    (to be clear, i have zero problem with sarcasm or mockery or ridicule per se. i mean, it’s the internet! not exactly a place for wimps. the problem is with larry having one standard for himself and another for others.)

    i’m sorry if my comments weren’t overtly substantive enough for you, so maybe it would help if i was more explicit. i think you’re wrong that we made a mistake in the last two presidential elections. i think you’re wrong to suggest that obama was elected for “the most superficial of reasons” (which in the present context sure sounds like a reference to race, but maybe you have something else in mind.) i think we did make a mistake in who we elected in 2000 and 2004. i think that matches the level of substance you’ve put forth, so i hope you’re happy now.

  23. The Original Larry says:

    HT, I take back what I said about you being too clever not to understand my original comment.

  24. Brian Mann says:

    hi guys – please keep it civil and share your ideas. you’re straying into particularly tedious ad hominem attacks. i’m not sure how to stop the comments, so it’s honor system day. :)

    –brian, ncpr

  25. knuckleheadedliberal says:

    Great, just when it starts to get interesting between ht and OL here comes Brian to break it up. But guess what? Super Bowl kick-off is about to start and there’ll be a couple of good hours to escape the monitor. Ad hominem away!

  26. pirateedwardlow says:

    1) there is a good chance Ms. Clinton might have won in 2008, if John Edwards would not have been in the running (and should, since he was denying an Extramarital Affair (that he did have), no guarantee, but his votes in the primary probably would have gone to Clinton.

    2) Ms. Warren is the best candidate for 2012, of any party. She is holding the party line and staying out of the fray.

    3) The one thing Warren has over Clinton, there are a lot of Republicans who would never vote for her… but that is just lip service… the republicans that say that… usually have never voted for a democrat.

  27. bill shaver says:

    Wow ,mistakes of the past…seems the repubs are the best at that…they are still A NASCAR RACE no matter who is in the lead & they’ll wreck at the nearest opertunity….Yes Two women on the ticket seems Radicle, but it might just be the best medicine needed for the country in the guise of heathcare reform, education , pension & immigtration reforms….it would be a bold step into the future….can only try…to not try ,be-speaks lack of courage to carry the torch of justice & equality forward and get reforms going, solid ones the country is overdue on. Pension & heath care is the biggest detriment to buisness in usa or anywhere in the world. Time we fixed our problems at home. i still say get both Mrs Clinton & Warren on the dems ticket, the repubs have nothing but the same old playbook of no, nothing or never….They’d represent a breath of fresh air into the white house.

  28. bill shaver says:

    Furthermore, if getting two women in white house is to radicle, why have we not put First nations people in the positions to be elected prez & vice prez!? its time to open our eyes its the 21’st century…..

  29. Peter says:

    Could Elizabeth Warren topple Hillary Clinton?

    It depends entirely on the media!

  30. Mr. Kent says:

    No. I do not think so. But she does something no one else in the Democratic Party can do-she excites the base and gets them involved and steers the party in a progressive direction.

    She is today’s version of Teddy Roosevelt.

  31. bill shaver says:

    well put, and such the objectivity of reform in heathcare for all, pensions, education, imigration & dare say revenue.

  32. bill shaver says:

    Not one defeating the other ,but a bold step to work togther & together they would make a formidable force hands dpown…and thus get refroms accomplished.

  33. The Original Larry says:

    “She is today’s version of Teddy Roosevelt.”

    Aside from being associated with the word “progressive” there is very little similarity. Politically, the word means something vastly different now, than it did then. The comparison is ludicrous.

  34. Two Cents says:

    I apologize. I was looking for a short cut, HT.
    when people, men or women speak to me as she did,well I take it very personally.
    not everyone is an idiot, as she or her speech writer assumed. I’ll try harder in the future—–only if she does.

    Mark, nope. your way off there. love women in politics. keeps a balance, just like nature intended. need more. the comment was in reference to how I feel America feels on that subject. “draperies” and such.

    ps it was a hypothetical “punch”, unlike her absurd commentary. I’ve never hit anyone in my entire 54 years on this planet.

  35. Two Cents says:

    pss. I never mentioned where I’d punch. never the face, maybe the throat though….

  36. Paul says:

    “It has taken eight years to undo the damage they did last time.”

    Last time I checked everyone was claiming that this administration has been blocked at every opportunity. How could they “undo” anything if they supposedly can’t do anything?

    The markets have come back and the economy with them. It has nothing to do with the president or his administration or the congress that he was at odds with for most of his tenure. The last eight years have proven that DC is pretty irrelevant.

  37. Mr. Kent says:

    Original Larry-Excuse me, but you could not be more wrong or perhaps just not familiar with Teddy Roosevelt and the progressive movement in the early 20th century. I would encourage you to research the man and the time period , and yes “She is today’s version of Teddy Roosevelt.”

    FYI, here is part of the platform Teddy Roosevelt and the progressives ran on in 1912

    Trust Busting ( exactly what Warren is trying to do with the financial world and wall street.
    Stricter regulations of industrial “combinations.” a strong National regulation of inter-State corporations.
    Minimum wage standards for working women.
    Conservation
    Banking oversight and regualations
    Progressive taxes to pay for roads

    I would encourage you to go to this site to read the platform.
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/tr-progressive/

    No Larry, she is a modern day Teddy Roosevelt. Hope you learn more about TR and the progressive movement in America. You must understand, that in the end PROGRESSIVE IDEAS ALWAYS WIN…ALWAYS.

    A short list for you to consider. All progressive ideas.

    Womens Rights ( voting, roe v wade, discrimination based on sex, title IX and on and on)
    Civil Rights
    FDR and social security and those programs.
    Same Sex Marriage
    and on and on and on.

    And guess what. Obama and the progressives have already won the National Health Care debate. It is over. Obamacare is here, and it may be replaced, but the concept is now a part of our culture and it is not going away.
    Republicans no longer run around screaming ” repeal,” without following it up with ” and replace.”

  38. FreedomToThink says:

    The nightmare of Hillary Clinton becoming president, beyond being the final brick in the wall, proving forever more that the majority of Americans are in fact, nothing but mindless Lemmings, not at all capable of individual, intellectual thought, or proof positive that we really are fools to think that the voting process is actually real would if nothing else, be the ultimate determining factor in my taking my family and leaving this country before it sinks entirely.
    The real question should be, how entirely pitiful are we as supposedly educated people, that we still, still, continue to allow this two party oligarchy DNC/RNC system to run OUR country for their benefit and even worse, actually believe that any of them will ever represent the average American. Every single candidate since Reagan on up has proved unequivocally that their allegiance and in fact the entire reason they got into office in the first place, was 100% to the party affiliation. We will not ever again have a government of, for and by the people until these two shill parties are dead and driven into the ground.
    Lastly, for the record… As a liberal leaning, working class person, I would vote for that fat kid from North Korea before I’d vote for a pathological liar like Hillory Clinton.

  39. Paul says:

    I think there is a good chance that ACA will be gutted by the supreme court. It will be interesting to see how they deal with that if it comes to pass.

  40. shovel says:

    Understanding the way the world works is a sign of maturity, or so I keep telling myself. Warren is not a national candidate, and while I respect her greatly it seems clear that her truth-telling style would not easily translate into a successful presidency.

    Here’s the image that I can’t shake from my mind: Clinton as the modern day Thatcher. Completely different politics, but somehow the same confidence and sense of inevitability. Thatcher’s England was an angry, disjointed place and I think Clinton would be much more likely to calm the red/blue animosity, but there is something familiar…

  41. Peter Hahn says:

    Paul – I agree up to a point. “The last eight years have proven that DC is pretty irrelevant.” The verb should be “has been” instead of “is”. Even that is not quite true. The stimulus from both Bush and Obama helped.

  42. The Original Larry says:

    Thanks for the lecture, Mr. Kent, but I’m not buying it at all. Any comparison between Warren and TR is superficial, at best. She may yet become a progressive in the TR mold, and it would be a fine thing for us all if she did, but that’s a long way off. If that’s her aspiration, she might start with a study of TR’s foreign policy. So might you, for that matter.

  43. Paul says:

    2016 is already looking like a “which is the best bad choice” type of election. Too bad.

  44. Mr. Kent says:

    Dear Original Larry.
    I will defend to the end your right to be wrong and uninformed.

  45. bill shaver says:

    think positive 7 push the idea of two women on the demos ticket…..

  46. dave says:

    She could always run as a third party candidate and give the election to a Bush.

  47. bill shaver says:

    Either way I think either of them would make excellent candidates for the up comming federal election. I think the party of Nothing & never & no…will fall on their own knives over this…and only attack their character…real men…yeah….the mask on the contenders to be at the head of the GOP NASCAR race…will certinly be evident then….for they will be pulling it off by their own hands and even the blind will be able to see who they are, some will say this will be an epiphany, other will simply be agast at their behavior, others will consoldiate cap in hand….but in the end an act of devine intervention….

  48. Mervel says:

    Hillary Clinton is a very competent person, she would be fine as President. Dr. Warren is a professor, she is already totally disconnected from the working class, I just don’t see her clicking with the silent majority of individuals who actually make this country work and vote into office our Presidents.

    I think Republicans are hoping for a Warren nomination just as much as Democrats are hoping that Cruz or Perry get the nomination.

  49. Mervel says:

    I think a Scott Walker vs Hillary Clinton campaign would be really interesting. The worst thing for me would be a Jeb Bush vs Clinton race, what a bore, what a bad thing for our country. I don’t think I would vote. Maybe I would go vote for Nader again.

  50. bill shaver says:

    Mrs Warren as the professor…kind of wonder hence why i see the two on the same ticket, bold stratigy ….it might be the medicine needed for the country to get it out of the malise of nothing concrete happening on policy, watching Mr walker cross the floor to talk about tax reform is a surprise…somone who wants to work with the other side & accomplish sommthing to attract buisneess to come back to usa. He got out of HIS NASCAR…because he sees a wreck comming ahead, we all bore witness to the first gop nascar wreck..the vacinne pontification & backpeddelaing on the national airwaves.ANYHOW cheers to mrs Warren & mrc Clinton, may they both accend to the top, we need them more than ever.

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